ECML & WCML - do "up" and "down" reverse at border?

[zwk500]

Do London-bound trains from Exeter St Davids leave by going up to Paddington, but down to Waterloo?

The Waterloo-Salisbury-Exeter line is Down from London all the way to the junction at the throat of St Davids. So I suppose they are technically travelling 'Up' for a hundred yards or so until clear of the platform.

 

[Rescars]

Of course this means that a train from Glasgow Central to Waverley via Carstairs will change their direction twice on the journey.

Is there anywhere else this happens in such quick succession?

Some strange anomalies may occur at triangular junctions. Others may be able to suggest specific examples.

 

[Railsigns]

Actually on the ECML, before the Grouping in 1923, the North Eastern owned the line from Newcastle to Berwick where Down was going north. The North British owned the line from Edinburgh to Berwick and Down was going south. So the change wasn't at the border but at Berwick Station.

You have evidence that Edinburgh to Berwick was Down to Berwick in NBR days? I've seen evidence to the contrary.

 

[snowball]

Of course this means that a train from Glasgow Central to Waverley via Carstairs will change their direction twice on the journey.

Is there anywhere else this happens in such quick succession?

There must be triangular junctions where some trains change twice in a few hundred yards.
Edit: oops, Rescars has said this already.
Further edit: and as people point out below, a triangular junction only guarantees one change.

 

[Efini92]

I seem to remember that if you go from Birmingham New Street to Gravelly Hill you change at least twice in the space of a few miles.

You’d leave new st on the Up then you’d change to the Down on the Vauxhall lines. If you carried on the cross city through to Barton you’d end up on the up tamworth.

 

[zwk500]

There must be triangular junctions where some trains change twice in a few hundred yards.
Edit: oops, Rescars has said this already.

Only 1 arm of the triangle usually reverses direction. You'd need two triangles in quick succession (Soho lines in Birmingham are one example) to change twice, and even then only on one route. I think the Brighton-Southampton reverses direction twice: from Down to Up at Portcreek triangle and then from Up to Down at Fareham onto the Netley branch (for historic reasons, the Fareham-Portsmouth line is 'Down' in the eastbound direction, as the original routing ex-London was via Winchester).

Harrogate is in the unusual situation of being at the 'Up' end of both possible approaches despite not being a junction, because of the Historic arrangement with the Lines to Ripon. There's possibly others.

 

[Railsigns]

There must be triangular junctions where some trains change twice in a few hundred yards.

I think it would be extremely unusual that trains would change their direction twice when passing through the same triangular junction. The situation could be easily avoided by reversing the directions on that side of the triangle.

 

[swt_passenger]

Only 1 arm of the triangle usually reverses direction. You'd need two triangles in quick succession (Soho lines in Birmingham are one example) to change twice, and even then only on one route. I think the Brighton-Southampton reverses direction twice: from Down to Up at Portcreek triangle and then from Up to Down at Fareham onto the Netley branch (for historic reasons, the Fareham-Portsmouth line is 'Down' in the eastbound direction, as the original routing ex-London was via Winchester).

Harrogate is in the unusual situation of being at the 'Up' end of both possible approaches despite not being a junction, because of the Historic arrangement with the Lines to Ripon. There's possibly others.

The Netley Line is up as far St Denys P4 - no changes at Fareham.

 

[zwk500]

The Netley Line is up as far St Denys P4 - no changes at Fareham.

Ah, thanks for the correction. So a Brighton-Southampton would still run Down/Up/Down but the two changes are further apart.

 

[snowball]

I think it would be extremely unusual that trains would change their direction twice when passing through the same triangular junction. The situation could be easily avoided by reversing the directions on that side of the triangle.

Sorry, yes, I realised that soon after posting and have now edited it.

The Ordsall Chord creates a triangular junction close to the up/down swap at Manchester Victoria, so a train from, say, Manchester Airport to Leeds changes from down to up and back to down with a short distance.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah, thanks for the correction. So a Brighton-Southampton would still run Down/Up/Down but the two changes are further apart.

Yes, that’s right. I think the Cardiff to Portsmouth route might be a fairly good example of what the question in post #29 was asking about. Heading Eastwards it’s up as far as the Filton area somewhere, down to Bristol then reverse in up direction to Westbury, then down to Wilton, up to Salisbury, up to St Denys then down to Portsmouth. But there‘ll presumably be numerous similar routes of a cross country nature?

I’m not sure the digression into triangular junctions helps much, because every triangle must have a change of direction on one leg. And single changes of direction during a journey must be very common too.

 

[zwk500]

Yes, that’s right. I think the Cardiff to Portsmouth route might be a fairly good example of what the original question was asking about. Heading Eastwards it’s up as far as the Filton area somewhere, down to Bristol then reverse in up direction to Westbury, then down to Wilton, up to Salisbury, up to St Denys then down to Portsmouth. But there‘ll presumably be numerous similar routes of a cross country nature?

The Liverpool-Norwich must have a had a few.

I’m not sure the digression into triangular junctions helps much, because every triangle must have a change of direction on one leg. And single changes of direction during a journey must be very common too.

Single changes of direction will be very common, given most reversals would change line direction, as will most services going East-west across Manchester

 

[snowball]

I imagine there may be places where line closures have created a swap at a point which was once a junction but is no longer a junction.

 

[adrock1976]

As mentioned, this isn't correct. What you may be thinking of is that the mileposts north of the border are from a zero at Edinburgh, so start decreasing when crossing the border in either direction. Most often the mileage increases in the Down direction, but not always.

[SNIP]

Another one I can think of where the mileage increases to London is the former Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire/Great Central Railway (London Extension) where the milepost at Marylebone is a three digit number.

Was this measured from Manchester Central or London Road (present day Piccadilly)?

 

[zwk500]

I imagine there may be places where line closures have created a swap at a point which was once a junction but is no longer a junction.

Harrogate is one.

Another one I can think of where the mileage increases to London is the former Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire/Great Central Railway (London Extension) where the milepost at Marylebone is a three digit number.

Was this measured from Manchester Central or London Road (present day Piccadilly)?

Mileposts are from Manchester London Road (now Piccadilly) but believe the Down and Up lines are conventionally aligned with regards to London - a rare example of Mileage increasing in the Up direction.
From Marylebone the mileage actually changes several times - Marylebone is measured from Manchester, than at Neasden South Jn it switches to being measured from Northolt Jn then at Northolt Jn it starts increasing away from that point.
Heading towards Aylesbury the Mileage changes at the NR/LU boundary, with the LU (former Met?) mileage continued from Great Missenden (increasing in the down). Just north of Quainton Road the old GC mileage returns, decreasing in the down.
The Princes Risborough-Aylesbury Branch is a different mileage to both lines, making me think it's possibly Zeroed at Paddington. In the same Area, East-West Rail will also be an oddity with the zero just west of Bletchley, so Mileage decreases in the down from Oxford to Bletchley then starts increasing again as it crosses the WCML. I don't know if there's a plan to remile Oxford-Bletchley once EWR opens but I suspect not.

EDIT: Have just found the following old threads which may be of interest

Up and Down

Raising as new thread, from this one on timetables, quoting posts from there, as a separately interesting one The 1850 Bradshaw (reprint unfortunately) has Tables headed 'Down' heading away from London (or any other route) alongside tables headed 'UP' in standard railway convention but the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Low mileage end / high mileage end?

Hi, I'm very new to rail and was wondering how the low mileage end and high mileage end are determined? Is it to do with the Up and the Down, e.g. the UP travels towards higher mileage and the Down towards lower mileage?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Rob F]

Nottingham Midland was interesting when the direct line via Melton was still open. There is a milepost still on Platform 4 that measures the distance to London via Melton and Corby. The miles then kept increasing via Mansfield Jct and the Trowell line to the Erewash Valley.
This means that a train to London using the current route via Leicester would start in the Down direction before rapidly switching to the Up direction once past Mansfield junction. I assume the directions were reversed when the Melton line closed but I don’t know for certain.

 

[rower40]

In the TPRs (Timetable Planning Rules) for each line, the locations on that line are listed down the page, with London (or the Up-end terminus of the line) at the top. That means that a "down" train is one travelling down the page. I think the same will be true for the Sectional Appendix.

 

[zwk500]

In the TPRs (Timetable Planning Rules) for each line, the locations on that line are listed down the page, with London (or the Up-end terminus of the line) at the top. That means that a "down" train is one travelling down the page. I think the same will be true for the Sectional Appendix.

For Tables A diagrams yes.

 

[TPO]

Do the Welsh Valley lines still use the more 'topographically correct' orientation of 'up' and 'down' lines?

Yes, mostly.

On the "Core Valley Lines" (Cardiff to Merthyr, Aberdare, Rhymney or Treherbert), "up" is uphill away from Cardiff and "down" is downhill towards Cardiff. However the principal city convention is maintained on the Barry/Penarth branches where it's "down" to Barry/Penarth and "Up" to Cardiff.

Given the ruling gradients on the Valleys it all makes sense, messes with your head otherwise!

TPO

 

[stuving]

Going up to London fits badly with the vernacular in Aberdeen, and most of Scotland, when we say going Down South, ie, to England.

Do people in London say they are going Down to Aberdeen? Surely not!

That being said, few of the general public are talking from a tack and signals perspective.

Idiomatic usage does change, and we all know about how railways stick to their way of doing things. So what was common before 1830 may have been reinforced by everyone using the railways, but we've had two generations using them less and less and inventing new idioms based on their experience.

Newspapers can take us back a bit further than 1830, but not before 1700. I find "down to Scotland" and "up to London" are common from 1710. I suspect this has a number of sources: itineraries would be one (not just for stage coaches), and the notion of social hierarchy would be another.

As for Aberdeen, this from the Caledonian Mercury 23 October 1745:

A sloop is gone down to Aberdeen in order to bring up the members of parliament by sea, having been discharged to attend this sessions, by a proclamation published at Edinburgh.

The historical context is a bit complicated, since this paper supported the government and was based in Edinburgh. At this date, however, Edinburgh was controlled by the Jacobites, who were debating whether to invade England - the landing of a French force at Stonehaven (reported in this issue) helped to decide them to march to Derby and subsequent disaster. So I guess the MPs were going up to London, but who had proclaimed what in Edinburgh and when I have no idea.

Not only is there is nothing unusual about idiomatic usage changing, but you can get two incompatible meanings at the same time. Just talking about "up", there is the troublesome "up to". How about this, from NRE:

You can buy an Advance ticket for most journeys up to 12 weeks in advance, and up to 10 minutes before departure.

You can interpret "up to" in two ways (mainly; there may be others). It can be about numbers, in which case "up to 12" means 12 or less, and since weeks "in advance" count backwards in time here "up to" means "after". But it can be about dates (or times), and then it means "before" (i.e. leading up to), and "before 10 minutes before" does make sense. But if you interpret both "up to"s the same way the sentence makes no sense, does it?

It's a common problem when doing arithmetic with words (and doing algebra is even worse) - the rules of language and mathematics are different.

 

[Ken H]

The midland railway in Yorkshire has some oddities
A train from Carlisle woukd be an up train as far as Leeds. The up main was then the whitehall curve to Woodlesford and Wakefield
The route from Bradford FS is I think, up towards shipley and stays up through the east curve.
But the west curve must change in the platform. It was double track in my lifetime but single now.
The Skipton - Ilkley - Apperley Jct route woukd be the same as the Airedale route. But what about the Baildon route?
And as I said up thread, what about the Leeds stations. Were/are they all down going north east?

 

[Rescars]

The OP asked what happens when a train reaches a border. In pursuit of this theme, do Eurostar trains run up to London and down to Kent? If so, what happens when they get to France? In the Channel Tunnel itself, are trains simply northbound or southbound like the Tube?

 

[zwk500]

The OP asked what happens when a train reaches a border. In pursuit of this theme, do Eurostar trains run up to London and down to Kent? If so, what happens when they get to France? In the Channel Tunnel itself, are trains simply northbound or southbound like the Tube?

HS1 is definitely Up to London and Down to Kent. I believe Eurostar trains are normally meant to be referred to as 'inbound' and 'outbound', looking at the HS1 sectional appendix. I think the CT uses North/southbound, and then when they get to France they number rather than name their tracks so trains are pair/impair (odd/even).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Another one I can think of where the mileage increases to London is the former Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire/Great Central Railway (London Extension) where the milepost at Marylebone is a three digit number.
Was this measured from Manchester Central or London Road (present day Piccadilly)?

MS&L mileage was measured from London Road via Woodhead, eventually to Marylebone.
CLC mileage was measured from Liverpool Central, and there are still some very odd legacy mileages/directions south and east of Manchester.

I'm not sure about the original Liverpool & Manchester line, which you would expect to be Down from Liverpool (where the mileage starts).
Today it is Up, with the LNWR focussed on Euston.

I gather HS2 has a "London" line, and a "Birmingham" line, but the railway operators have not got to grips with it yet.

 

[vic-rijrode]

You have evidence that Edinburgh to Berwick was Down to Berwick in NBR days? I've seen evidence to the contrary.

I have a number of books by different authors who all state that the North British Railway designated its lines as "Down" (away from Edinburgh) and "Up" (towards Edinburgh).

A couple of these books (from Oakwood Press) are The North Berwick and Gullane Branch Lines by Andrew Hajducki and The Eyemouth Branch by Roger Jermy. They both reference the Down and Up lines frequently. In the former book, the branch line to North Berwick is described as veering away to the North-East from the Down Line.
In the latter book the main Burnmouth station building (as was), is described as being on the "Up" side of the line - in the photographs of the station, this building is clearly on the South West side of the line - i.e. on the Edinburgh-bound line.

One author could conceivably have got the designation incorrect, but both of them (and more) I doubt as they are well respected railway historians. That is my "evidence".

Of course, the designation was changed after the Grouping by the LNER.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, mostly.

On the "Core Valley Lines" (Cardiff to Merthyr, Aberdare, Rhymney or Treherbert), "up" is uphill away from Cardiff and "down" is downhill towards Cardiff. However the principal city convention is maintained on the Barry/Penarth branches where it's "down" to Barry/Penarth and "Up" to Cardiff.

Given the ruling gradients on the Valleys it all makes sense, messes with your head otherwise!

TPO

It also means that the directions align when the Valley lines merge with the South Wales Main Line east of Cardiff Central.

 

[Railsigns]

I have a number of books by different authors who all state that the North British Railway designated its lines as "Down" (away from Edinburgh) and "Up" (towards Edinburgh).

A couple of these books (from Oakwood Press) are The North Berwick and Gullane Branch Lines by Andrew Hajducki and The Eyemouth Branch by Roger Jermy. They both reference the Down and Up lines frequently. In the former book, the branch line to North Berwick is described as veering away to the North-East from the Down Line.
In the latter book the main Burnmouth station building (as was), is described as being on the "Up" side of the line - in the photographs of the station, this building is clearly on the South West side of the line - i.e. on the Edinburgh-bound line.

Thank you. A Signalling Record Society journal from 1989 contains an article on the early history of Reston Junction. This includes layout diagrams for Reston East and Reston West signal boxes, both dated 1875 and both showing the Down line towards Edinburgh and the Up line towards Berwick. Both diagrams are accompanied by lists of signal descriptions matching the directions shown on the diagrams. The diagrams and signal descriptions in the article are facsimile copies of original North British Railway documents held at The National Archives in Kew.

Of course, the designation was changed after the Grouping by the LNER.

Was it though?

 

[vic-rijrode]

Thank you. A Signalling Record Society journal from 1989 contains an article on the early history of Reston Junction. This includes layout diagrams for Reston East and Reston West signal boxes, both dated 1875 and both showing the Down line towards Edinburgh and the Up line towards Berwick. Both diagrams are accompanied by lists of signal descriptions matching the directions shown on the diagrams. The diagrams and signal descriptions in the article are facsimile copies of original North British Railway documents held at The National Archives in Kew.


Was it though?

Interesting! Maybe they changed their minds at some point?

I think it matters not.

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting! Maybe they changed their minds at some point?

I think it matters not.

Sounds more like the authors of the books you mentioned, without access to official information, may have made an incorrect assumption. Possibly one of them did that and the others used the information so the apparent multiple sources are actually one.

 

[zwk500]

Sounds more like the authors of the books you mentioned, without access to official information, may have made an incorrect assumption. Possibly one of them did that and the others used the information so the apparent multiple sources are actually one.

This is an incredibly common problem (I did history as my undergraduate degree, it was a big risk even for more general subjects), especially with railway history where individuals quickly gain a reputation for being authorities on a matter and so their mistakes tend to be perpetuated.