ECML Shortlist

[yorkie]

Cheapest Fares? £6 one way from Derby to St Pancras with an Adult. Of course booking in advance. I'm pretty sure that's cheap.

All the IC TOCs have cheap quota controlled advance fares, that's not the issue. The issue is a potentially massive increase in walk-on fares.

Walk-On fares for any TOC are completely extortionate anyway, whether it would be GNER, MML, Northern or any TOC...

I'd disagree - some are actually quite reasonably priced, while others are - as you say - extortionate.

Voted Best Long Distance Operator last year, so what do think MML are going to put on there website, "Don't travel by Train, we're have an "Anti-CDR" policy"?

I expect them to put up a load of stuff that makes them sound good, of course, as any company would do!

GNER had an anti-rover policy but that went out the window didn't it?

Yep it did. I don't know what they were playing at, but at least they listened to their customers and it was overturned within a week!

 

[theblackwatch]

All the IC TOCs have cheap quota controlled advance fares, that's not the issue. The issue is a potentially massive increase in walk-on fares.

We have already had such an increase thrust upon us by GNER over the years - there was a massive price hike around a year ago when the 'Business Saver' fares were increased by some 25%.

A further example - looking back at the early days of GNER in 1998, it was possible to go from York to London on the 08.33 departure using a Saver priced at £61.10. Now, thanks to added restrictions imposed by GNER, that ticket cannot be used until 09.35, and the cheapest walk on fare is a Business Saver which costs £112.50 - an increase of over 84%!

 

[ChrisCooper]

I think Arriva would be interesting, since they havn't had a franchise like this before. Also, despite what a lot of people say, I can't see they have done too bad on their franchises, especially compared to similar franchises. It's not like Northern is any better than ATN was, and I'm sure ATW is no worse than Wales and Borders was. I've travelled with Arriva trains quite a few times, and I've never had problems, which is not something I can say for a lot of TOCs (well, I've never had problems off Scotrail, but I've never used their trains).
One important thing regarding this franchise and also East Midlands (or any others for that matter) is that past performance (or train operator of the year wins) does not effect the winner of a franchise. If it did, First GB Rail would have got the Greater Anglia franchise for definite, since both Anglia and FGE had very good performance, and both have won TOC of the year.
Back to the ECML, I wonder is if we'll still get the great 1st class service at weekends? GNER is very good, with free tea and coffee (with real cups), free biscuits and cakes, and at seat service. NX though with MML and 'one' are very poor in comparison (the latter you get none of those, and on the former, the free tea and coffee is available to standard class aswell so doesn't count, infact on a lot of occasions the benefit of upgrading is getting a seat). I havn't done Virgin or FGW weekend first though, so can't comment.

 

[devon_metro]

I like Virgin as they have some great deals on advance fares, are nice about allowing YP discounts and relaxed about saver restrictions. If they could take this over into the Intercity East Coast franchise, I would certainly be happy to see them but as others have mentioned, the monopoly aspect might give them a problem.

I have found the advance purchase tickets on Virgin generally have no availbilty though and are sold out in seconds. Once the first batch has gone they are fairly pricy.

 

[Tom]

The SWT walk-on fares, IMO, are quite reasonable.

For instance, a Bournemouth - London TC child fare (£19.45), IMHO is extremely good value for the fact that you get at least 217 miles travel out of it... (works out to about £0.08 per mile). Adult fare is £38.90, and it works out to about £0.17 per mile. 5p/10p off if you split at Brockenhurst.

Looking at a similar distance journey, Bath Spa - London TC child fare (£25.80) for 213 miles, that is 12p per mile. Adult fare is £51.60, works out to 24p per mile. Although, you can get a discount on that by splitting at Didcot Parkway IIRC.

Looking at GNER, a Grantham - London TC is extremely good value.

 

[332 > 444]

1st post, Well i just wanting to make a point about if Virgin/Stagecoach won, it may not necessarily be a monopoly in Scotland seen as they may not even retain the Cross Country Franchise.

Arriva: Dunno about them, never been on their services, cant pass judgement.

First: im anti-First, their services are poor, including their London bus operation so hell no

Virgin: High quality customer service and have dramatically improved since the early 2000's.

NEX: Same with as Virgin, they do a good job on MML, One (GER/Intercity)

I would like either Virgin/Stagecoach or NEX to win it.

Tom, That Bournemouth fare, is that a cheap day return? Just asking as the Saver Return isnt that far off at £40.90 (approx)

 

[class 313]

Nice to see your first post in this thread is criticizing something i've said!

And I for one would expect them to win the franchise again!

All this praise isn't for nothing, and im sure the DfT will take them all into consideration when the franchise comes up for renewal. Read through this thread, Class 313, even enthusiasts have praised MML... (excluding Yorkie )... and my point is with both franchises under one manager we may see some cheaper tickets linking the two! I don't see why you'd want to argue with that.. who would want more expensive tickets!? (Other than the managers..)

2008 is next year, which I would consider soon, also, nothing wrong with a little criticizing...

Never in my posts have I not praised MML, nor have I bad mouthed MML in anyway to give the impression I'm not praising them.

But, you don't see cheap tickets with South Eastern and Southern do you? Nor did you see cheap tickets between Thameslink and Southern. Just cos the TOC is ran with the same company doesn't mean cheap tickets. More examples are Silverlink and Central... Besides, like I said, NatEx owning MML is soon to be gone, and how do you know NatEx will be allowed to try and get the franchise again? An example of this is Silverlink...

 

[class 313]

First: im anti-First, their services are poor, including their London bus operation so hell no


NEX: Same with as Virgin, they do a good job on MML, One (GER/Intercity)

I would like either Virgin/Stagecoach or NEX to win it.

Ermm,

Although I didn't want First to take over Thameslink, they have done a better job than I thought. So tbh Just cos they are crap in one part, does not mean they are crap all over. An example will be NatEx... Good with MML but crap with c2c and ONE...

And can you explain this? "One (GER/Intercity)"

 

[westcoaster]

And can you explain this? "One (GER/Intercity)"

prob means london to norwich

 

[332 > 444]

Ermm,

Although I didn't want First to take over Thameslink, they have done a better job than I thought. So tbh Just cos they are crap in one part, does not mean they are crap all over. An example will be NatEx... Good with MML but crap with c2c and ONE...

And can you explain this? "One (GER/Intercity)"

Yes i used to work where i had to get c2c and back then it was absolutely dire, once leaving Lakeside workers stranded till midnight and then in 2005 they have more punctual trains (which im suprised about.) Ok and Silverlink Metro too is quite bad (poor infrastructure, shared with freight, dilapidated trains no offence 313 or anyone who is named 150!)

Your right on the Thameslink part, they run without problems but the GN part...

GER= Great Eastern Railway and the Intercity to Norwich.

Well we will have to wait and see the outcome, if Virgin would monopolise intercity travel into Scotland, First is monopolising most regions of the UK!

 

[Tom]

One Day Travelcard, 332 > 444.

 

[paul1609]

But, you don't see cheap tickets with South Eastern and Southern do you? Nor did you see cheap tickets between Thameslink and Southern. Just cos the TOC is ran with the same company doesn't mean cheap tickets..

Err Southern have daysave a £10 off peak all network rover.
All network Downlander at £12.50 (all southern trains and most buses in the Brighton/ Eastbourne area)
Pricebuster return to London Victoria at 2/3 of the all toc cheap day return.
and of course the network card.


South Eastern Also have the pricebuster.

As reservations wouldnt be practical on the franchises i think they have done a pretty good job

 

[class 313]

Err Southern have daysave a £10 off peak all network rover.
All network Downlander at £12.50 (all southern trains and most buses in the Brighton/ Eastbourne area)
Pricebuster return to London Victoria at 2/3 of the all toc cheap day return.
and of course the network card.


South Eastern Also have the pricebuster.

As reservations wouldnt be practical on the franchises i think they have done a pretty good job

I didn't mean cheap tickets in their own TOC's... I meant cheap tickets connecting South Eastern and Southern together...

 

[devon_metro]

First: im anti-First, their services are poor, including their London bus operation so hell no

Virgin: High quality customer service and have dramatically improved since the early 2000's.

NEX: Same with as Virgin, they do a good job on MML, One (GER/Intercity)

Although despite First destroying timetables in fGW they have done some good things. Some of the problems in the first few weeks with fGW were down to infrastructure. In my opinion first group invests much money in trains. For example TPE 185s, Mk3 refurbs (despite how good it is or not), TL 319s and there is much in the planning line.

Personally I would not like to see Virgin win it. It just wouldn't work with them sharing two anglo scotish routes. I would like to see NEX win it. It can be seen that MML and Wessex trains were good franchsies, despite the high, in some cases, fares.

 

[Dennis]

FGW are not investing in the HST refurbs, the owners, Angel are.

 

[class 313]

TL 319s and there is much in the planning line.

*Takes gun away from Liams back*

Nicely done Mr Liam!

 

[paul1609]

I didn't mean cheap tickets in their own TOC's... I meant cheap tickets connecting South Eastern and Southern together...

I asked a Southern Manager about a SE rover covering both Southern and Southeastern trains. He said that if the ticket covers more than 1 franchise the ticket has to be handled by ATOC under the terms of the franchises. This applies even when both franchises are operated by the same company.
All other franchises have to be invited to comment and participate. In the case of a SE rover this would have to include First Great Western, Gatwick Express, Southwest Trains and Virgin XC. The economics were such that they thought that the Daysave and Kent Rovers were a better deal for the punters.

 

[class 313]

I asked a Southern Manager about a SE rover covering both Southern and Southeastern trains. He said that if the ticket covers more than 1 franchise the ticket has to be handled by ATOC under the terms of the franchises. This applies even when both franchises are operated by the same company.
All other franchises have to be invited to comment and participate. In the case of a SE rover this would have to include First Great Western, Gatwick Express, Southwest Trains and Virgin XC. The economics were such that they thought that the Daysave and Kent Rovers were a better deal for the punters.

Would also cover FCC wouldn't it?

 

[Peter]

methinks the government are trying to nationalise the railways by stealth, notice how the dft choose either First, arriva, or stagecoach for all the new franchaises...

 

[thefab444]

Wessex trains were good franchsies

Pardon? Wessex Trains and good don't compute!

 

[Daniel]

Pardon? Wessex Trains and good don't compute!

That should be "Wessex Trains and good didn't compete".


Although I think they were good.

 

[thefab444]

That should be "Wessex Trains and good didn't compete".


Although I think they were good.

Didn't compete?! Didn't compute maybe, but their last impression on me was that of crap, so I still see them as crap even though they've gone.

TBH The 158s are a disgrace! Especially some of the /9s (I think they can be called that) I've been on.

The 153 I saw yesterday wasn't too bad, neither were the two 143s... either First have cleaned 'em up, or it was just the 158/150s that were crap.

 

[devon_metro]

Didn't compete?! Didn't compute maybe, but their last impression on me was that of crap, so I still see them as crap even though they've gone.

TBH The 158s are a disgrace! Especially some of the /9s (I think they can be called that) I've been on.

The 153 I saw yesterday wasn't too bad, neither were the two 143s... either First have cleaned 'em up, or it was just the 158/150s that were crap.

At least wessex provided anough carriages from PMH-CDF!

 

[thefab444]

I'll give the 31s as a credit to them! But otherwise most of their trains were crap inside, likewise with ATW when I last went on one of their 158s. Trains were often too short on the Portsmouth - Cardiff line... Least I remember them as such.

 

[Nick W]

Whatever TOC wins, it'll probably make no difference as DfT gave the ONE region a rubbish timetable to allow more freight trains to pass through ipswich and DfT made the timetable for FGW.

And who specifies how much fares should go up and encourages more restrictions? DfT again...

DfT will probably accept whichever bid offers most money without considereing the feasability of paying it.

If Arriva win, it's quite possible that the same people who work for GNER now will work for them.

 

[Techniquest]

Wessex were much better than First in general!

 

[voyagerdude220]

I hope that Arriva don't get it- Having been from Manchester to Buxton yesterday for route coverage purposes, I spotted and heard announcments that one or two services were cancelled by Arriva, with others heavily delayed. (At around 16:30)

 

[Mojo]

Wessex Trains did a lot of good work on branch lines, promoting discount tickets and rovers, as well as providing station improvements such as improved signage, shelters and live information buttons!

However I haven't lived long in the area so don't know what things were like before.

 

[yorkie]

I hope that Arriva don't get it- Having been from Manchester to Buxton yesterday for route coverage purposes, I spotted and heard announcments that one or two services were cancelled by Arriva, with others heavily delayed. (At around 16:30)

And you have evidence that the delay was attributed to Arriva, and not NR, or some external factor, right?

 

[Techniquest]

I believe that was down mainly to the idiots of South Wales, the chavs and chavettes, or NCF (as I believe some of them call themselves), or whatever. Buggered the signalling up something rotten...

175111 didn't sound too healthy in Coach A either, the engine wanted a bit of TLC...