ECML Resignalling Effect On Railtours

[LiftFan]

As I understand, the ECML is going to move to in-cab signalling in the not too distant future. For me this begs the question- what will the effect be on railtours (and freight)? Will groups such as West Coast, Riviera Trains and all need to start installing the new equipment in cabs of old locos or will there still be colour light signalling available?

 

[stuartl]

There is a project going on to fit a trial ects system to Tornado which if successful could be fitted to others.

 

[swt_passenger]

We had a thread about the Tornado stuff for ETCS, here:

Tornado to be fitted with in-cab signalling as part of East Coast Digital Programme

Interesting one this I thought: ECML Upgrade: Steam locomotive Tornado to be trial fitted with in-cab signalling Thales and Atkins have been chosen by Network Rail to deliver a new Pathfinder Project for heritage locomotives as part of the East Coast Digital Programme. The project will see...

www.railforums.co.uk

If you follow the link in my post #2 in that thread, you’ll find a detailed presentation about Tornado, and the new P2.

 

[Tony73E]

ETCS installation on the ECML will obviously become a problem for rolling stock operating over it when the lineside signals are decommisioned. It is my understanding that Network Rail do not intend to fund installtion of ETCS equipment to all rolling stock that could operate over the route today instead proposing haulage by ETCS-equipped traction or re-routing. It begs the question as to what would and what would not qualify for fitment. As an example fitting Tornado which is likely to operate on the ECML pretty regularly is logical. But would Clun Castle which has just visited Kings Cross quailfy?

 

[30907]

ETCS installation on the ECML will obviously become a problem for rolling stock operating over it when the lineside signals are decommisioned. It is my understanding that Network Rail do not intend to fund installtion of ETCS equipment to all rolling stock that could operate over the route today instead proposing haulage by ETCS-equipped traction or re-routing. It begs the question as to what would and what would not qualify for fitment. As an example fitting Tornado which is likely to operate on the ECML pretty regularly is logical. But would Clun Castle which has just visited Kings Cross quailfy?

No reason why it shouldn't qualify, if it is technically possible, but who pays?

 

[12LDA28C]

As I understand, the ECML is going to move to in-cab signalling in the not too distant future. For me this begs the question- what will the effect be on railtours (and freight)? Will groups such as West Coast, Riviera Trains and all need to start installing the new equipment in cabs of old locos or will there still be colour light signalling available?

Various locomotives owned by charter operators have been identified as undergoing trials with ETCS fitment, such as Class 37 and 47 diesels and various steam locomotives. I believe someone in NR or within the ETCS project will be in possession of the list of exactly which locos will be fitted initially.

 

[Trestrol]

Depends what you mean by not to distant future. ETCS will only reach Grantham by 2030. After that who knows, ECTS is expensive and unless someone coughs up a lot of cash then it won't happen. This is the problem with our railway funding that there is never enough money to go around. Also things go obsolete so quickly and Network Rail can't always rip out a newish system and replace it. Network Rail still has plenty of near 100 year old equipment still in use. SSI which is signalled north of Doncaster to Edinburgh will need to be replaced by 2050. Although it may be extended.

 

[D365]

Various locomotives owned by charter operators have been identified as undergoing trials with ETCS fitment, such as Class 37 and 47 diesels and various steam locomotives. I believe someone in NR or within the ETCS project will be in possession of the list of exactly which locos will be fitted initially.

Very much in flux as none of the 'charter' locomotives are currently included in the Class 37 & Class 47 vehicle lists.

It is my understanding that Network Rail do not intend to fund installtion of ETCS equipment to all rolling stock that could operate over the route today instead proposing haulage by ETCS-equipped traction or re-routing.

To a certain extent, Network Rail has to cover the costs, For example, NR paid for 3 x Class 37 to be 'revived' and fitted with Hitachi ETCS on behalf of WCRC. But none of the three (97301, 37668, 37669) have operated Cambrian ETCS trains in anger.

And now Network Rail is seemingly on a path to jettisoning the Siemens ETCS fitment for Class 37 and Class 47/57...

 

[31160]

I just hope one or more of the tour operators is switched on enough to run some charters with classes that definitely aren't going to be fitted, ie 20,33 45 50 & 56 before the curtains come down say start in the Midlands with one class into the terminus with something else on the rear to work straight back out. Its like that later lntercity job with the 90s I'm sure a 86 or 87 would tick a few boxes for peeps

 

[Tim M]

Depends what you mean by not to distant future. ETCS will only reach Grantham by 2030. After that who knows, ECTS is expensive and unless someone coughs up a lot of cash then it won't happen. This is the problem with our railway funding that there is never enough money to go around. Also things go obsolete so quickly and Network Rail can't always rip out a newish system and replace it. Network Rail still has plenty of near 100 year old equipment still in use. SSI which is signalled north of Doncaster to Edinburgh will need to be replaced by 2050. Although it may be extended.

Just a quick note About the ECML. Where SSI is installed, e.g. parts of the Peterborough area, York to Berwick and Edinburgh Waverley, the interlocking ‘cubicles’ can be replaced with compatable systems such as Westlock and Surelock without the need to change the trackside equipment. Both these systems have the neccesary interface to an ETCS Block Processor.

 

[D365]

I just hope one or more of the tour operators is switched on enough to run some charters with classes that definitely aren't going to be fitted, ie 20,33 45 50 & 56 before the curtains come down say start in the Midlands with one class into the terminus with something else on the rear to work straight back out.

Unless you know something that my team doesn't, Class 56 is still on the 'Freight' programme.

 

[12LDA28C]

Very much in flux as none of the 'charter' locomotives are currently included in the Class 37 & Class 47 vehicle lists.


To a certain extent, Network Rail has to cover the costs, For example, NR paid for 3 x Class 37 to be 'revived' and fitted with Hitachi ETCS on behalf of WCRC. But none of the three (97301, 37668, 37669) have operated Cambrian ETCS trains in anger.

And now Network Rail is seemingly on a path to jettisoning the Siemens ETCS fitment for Class 37 and Class 47/57...

And yet you specifically mention 37668 and 37669 which as WCRC locomotives are fairly regularly used on charter trains and their associated ECS movements. Some time ago I was given a list of which Class 47s had been earmarked for ETCS fitment, including some examples operated by WCRC and LSL.

 

[D365]

And yet you specifically mention 37668 and 37669 which as WCRC locomotives are fairly regularly used on charter trains and their associated ECS movements.

I’m aware that 668 is still in regular use. What I wrote is that 668 and 669 have never operated service trains on the Cambrian lines following ETCS conversion.

Some time ago I was given a list of which Class 47s had been earmarked for ETCS fitment, including some examples operated by WCRC and LSL.

The Class 47 ETCS fitment currently falls under the ’Freight’ programme but to the best of my knowledge, WCRC and LSL do not yet have a contractual agreement for their 47s to be included.

 

[zwk500]

I’m aware that 668 is still in regular use. What I wrote is that 668 and 669 have never operated service trains on the Cambrian lines following ETCS conversion.

Although isn't that as much down to getting a path being next to impossible on the Cambrian?

As I understand, the ECML is going to move to in-cab signalling in the not too distant future. For me this begs the question- what will the effect be on railtours (and freight)? Will groups such as West Coast, Riviera Trains and all need to start installing the new equipment in cabs of old locos or will there still be colour light signalling available?

Going back to this, AIUI there will still be Colour-light signalling at Peterborough to accommodate freight moves to/from March. Freight running on the ECML south of Peterborough will presumably still need ETCS.

I am not sure if it would be possible for an ETCS-equipped loco to 'pilot' a non-ETCS equipped loco as required, although in theory it should be possible under Level 2 as long as the train braking data is known. If this is the case, a tour could run to London, attach a Loco at Wembley Yard (or other suitable location) and then be piloted over the ECML to Peterborough where the ETCS loco would detach and the tour continue.

 

[Townsend Hook]

I am not sure if it would be possible for an ETCS-equipped loco to 'pilot' a non-ETCS equipped loco as required, although in theory it should be possible under Level 2 as long as the train braking data is known. If this is the case, a tour could run to London, attach a Loco at Wembley Yard (or other suitable location) and then be piloted over the ECML to Peterborough where the ETCS loco would detach and the tour continue.

It happens regularly on the Cambrian line, with a Network Rail 97 piloting a non-ETCS 37, when double heading is required for reasons of having an ETS supply or extra grunt for moving the log trains.

 

[D365]

Although isn't that as much down to getting a path being next to impossible on the Cambrian?

I hear different stories from different people, but as you might be able to tell, I don't yet have a definitive answer! It's worth noting that WCRC has, in recent months, been crewing ECDP (East Coast Digital Programme) inspection saloon runs, which are typically hauled by 97302.