ECML Questions

[DescendingSadly]

Hi guys,

This is a really vague question so I apologise in advance!

What sort of stock would you see travelling from Kings Cross - York/Leeds?
Where abouts would you see them?
What would they be doing?
What livery would they be in?

Thank you!

 

[Techniquest]

Hi guys,

This is a really vague question so I apologise in advance!

What sort of stock would you see travelling from Kings Cross - York/Leeds?
Where abouts would you see them?
What would they be doing?
What livery would they be in?

Thank you!

Let's try and do those in the order they are presented:

HSTs and Class 91+Mk4s+DVTs

I don't quite understand this question, but anywhere on the ECML really for the 91s and nationwide for the HSTs

HSTs: Generally work things like the Aberdeen and Inverness services, as well as the Skipton, Harrogate and Hull services, as well as some services to Edinburgh/Newcastle and Leeds. 91s: The majority of services between London and Leeds, not to mention to York and beyond to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Also work the Bradford Forster Square trains.

Livery is currently a mix of the NXEC interim livery (GNER livery with a white stripe over the 'red' stripe, white numbers and names and National Express branding) and the new NX livery of grey and white with National Express branding.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[DescendingSadly]

Thanks Techniquest, I appreciate your reply!

I was hoping for some more information as to what sort of other TOC's run? what sort of stock do they have? how much freight is there?

Cheers!

 

[Bayum]

Quite a bit of freight around Doncaster...

Between Leeds and Wakefield Westgate, you will get 144s, 158s, 321s all doing commuter runs - 144's via Huddersfield, 158s (2 car and sometimes 3 car) usually onwards to sheffield, and 321's stopping services to doncaster, all run by northern

220/221 which Cross Country run on services to the south, and the north - some run via doncaster and onwards to sheffield, others turn off at Moorthorpe and straight to Sheffield

Hull trains run an Adelante and a 222 Between Kings cross and Hull, thi adelante is in FGW colours, with the FGW strip saying Hull Trains, and the 222 is in Hull trains livery

South of Peterborough, you may again get central trains 153's, 156's' 158's, in a variety of liveries, then you have 365's running stopping services to Kings Cross, and some via the Hertford Loop, some run non stop between Cambridge and Kings Cross

You also have 317's which again run stopping services between Peterborough and Kings Cross/Moorgate again - sometimes via the Hertford Loop, and all these services are operated by First Capital Connect

Grand Central run a 5 Car HST non stop from Doncaster onwards to Kings Cross, and as Techniquest said above - the other main classes on the line are the 43's and 91's operated by NXEC

I'm not sure if thats every item of stock you may find... But fairly close... I'm hoping...

EMT occasionally run a few services south to Leeds

 

[me123]

Grand Central also run from Kings Cross, but only to York.

In between, you've got:

Hull Trains (180s and 222s) KX-Doncaster
FCC (313s no further North than Letchworth; slow lines. 317s and 365s to Peterborough)
EMT: local trains (158 and some 156) between Grantham and Peterborough. Also some HSTs out of Leeds via Doncaster.
XC: Use ECML Doncaster to York (and, of course, beyond)

I think that's all the passenger services South of York. Can't help with freight.

 

[yorkie]

South of Peterborough, you may again get central trains 153's, 156's' 158's, in a variety of liveries, then you have 365's running stopping services to Kings Cross, and some via the Hertford Loop, some run non stop between Cambridge and Kings Cross

Central Trains no longer exist and they never did run on the ECML south of Peterborough. You forgot the most common class of EMT units to see at Peterborough - 170s!

You also have 317's which again run stopping services between Peterborough and Kings Cross/Moorgate again - sometimes via the Hertford Loop, and all these services are operated by First Capital Connect

317s are quite rare to Peterborough but you do get some. They do not run to Moorgate as only 313s (which you forgot) are cleared through the tubes tunnels. You also forgot the 365s which operate the majority of King's Cross to Peterborough services.

Grand Central run a 5 Car HST non stop from Doncaster onwards to Kings Cross,

No, but close...

I'm not sure if thats every item of stock you may find... But fairly close... I'm hoping...

EMT occasionally run a few services south to Leeds

South to Leeds? :-? North to Leeds or south from Leeds, surely?!

 

[GNERman]

Excuse me-Grand Central run 6-car sets!

 

[P156KWJ]

Central Trains no longer exist and they never did run on the ECML south of Peterborough. You forgot the most common class of EMT units to see at Peterborough - 170s!

317s are quite rare to Peterborough but you do get some. They do not run to Moorgate as only 313s (which you forgot) are cleared through the tubes tunnels. You also forgot the 365s which operate the majority of King's Cross to Peterborough services.

No, but close...

South to Leeds? :-? North to Leeds or south from Leeds, surely?!

he might have meant south from York?

 

[ungreat]

317s are quite rare to Peterborough but you do get some. They do not run to Moorgate as only 313s (which you forgot) are cleared through the tubes tunnels. You also forgot the 365s which operate the majority of King's Cross to Peterborough services.

317's are not rare at Peterborough in the slightest,we have a good half of our workings diagrammed for 317 traction....and you CAN see 317's at Moorgate,albeit Thameslink lines only.You are correct about 313's being the only stock allowed down the ex London Transport branch from Drayton Park-Moorgate,but thats more to do with them being dual voltage,as the tunnels will accomodate main line gauge stock,but are 3rd rail power supply.

PS...I HATE going down Moorgate!

 

[Bayum]

Doesnt matter people

Yorkie enjoys tearing me apart regularly on msn and railforums so - i dont really care.

He's the main reason I have such a problem with the admin on this site
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Central Trains no longer exist and they never did run on the ECML south of Peterborough. You forgot the most common class of EMT units to see at Peterborough - 170s!

Fine, whatever - I forgot - most of it's in different liveries anyways, so it doesn't really make a difference...

Thats funny... Last time I was at peterborough for nearly two hours, I only saw one 170

317s are quite rare to Peterborough but you do get some. They do not run to Moorgate as only 313s (which you forgot) are cleared through the tubes tunnels. You also forgot the 365s which operate the majority of King's Cross to Peterborough services.

No I didn't - I said south of peterborough, indicating they may run upto peterborough, and therefore south of

And btw, sorry I'm not a trainknowitall - I would rather have, a normal life to be honest - instead of it being revolved around knowing anything and everything to do with the railways...

Why would you do that to yourself really??

You don't even live south of Peterborough, yet you know everything about it.

lame really...

 

[Max]

You forgot the most common class of EMT units to see at Peterborough - 170s!

Technically, EMT don't operate 170s, these would be Cross Country )), but they are pretty common.

And Bayum, nobody is picking on you, it's about enhancing each others' posts to get the best possible information. It would only be like me offering information about Scotland, only to be corrected because my knowledge of the unit/lines there is a bit sketchy. And just because Yorkie doesn't live south of Peterborough, doesn't mean he shouldn't know about the line. It's more to do with how regularly you travel that way. I would have been able to correct most of your minor errors, even though I live in Hull, and I'm certainly not a 'trainknowitall', far from it! I have a diverse life, my interest in railways is simply a part of it .

 

[Bayum]

No, but - he's constantly doing the same sort of thing over MSN anything, and everything he has to tear apart, and have it his way

It just annoys me, and other people too probably..

 

[Auximines]

Excuse me-Grand Central run 6-car sets!

Not any more - they've taken one of the FO's out of the rake.

 

[Spaceflower]

Freight wise, there are plenty of class 66's in GBrf livery hauling coal bound for eastern power stations from Scotland.

 

[yorkie]

317's are not rare at Peterborough in the slightest,we have a good half of our workings diagrammed for 317 traction....

Well they used to be quite rare, the last diagrams I have (2007) only have 5 out of 41 (the 0836, 0936, 1136, 1536, 1653) departures from King's Cross to Peterborough as 317s and all the other departures as 365s. Interesting to see they've changed it to make the 317s more common on that route. Presumably they must be quite rare to Cambridge now? Do they have more than 10 diagrams now? I must do a 317 on that route one day as I've never had one yet...especially if any are booked on a fast to St Neots?

and you CAN see 317's at Moorgate,albeit Thameslink lines only.

Indeed; I was only commenting on the ECML services as that was what we were asked about - but you are quite right. Although anyone wanting to get a 317 on the 'Widened lines' must do so soon as the line is destined to close!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thats funny... Last time I was at peterborough for nearly two hours, I only saw one 170

I think every (ex-)Central train I've got from Peterborough has been a 170 with only about one or two exceptions, so I'm surprised about that.

No I didn't - I said south of peterborough, indicating they may run upto peterborough, and therefore south of

Yes, I know you said that, but how will you see any of those ex-Central units on the ECML south of Peterborough?

And btw, sorry I'm not a trainknowitall - I would rather have, a normal life to be honest - instead of it being revolved around knowing anything and everything to do with the railways...

Why would you do that to yourself really??

You don't even live south of Peterborough, yet you know everything about it.

lame really...

Please don't go insulting people. The fact is, someone asked a question. You gave an answer and I have made some corrections. If you can't accept that then that's your problem. It's not acceptable to suggest that people who give correct answers do not have a "normal" life.

I don't claim to know "everything about" the ECML south of Peterborough, but having done the journey many dozens of times, I know a bit about it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Technically, EMT don't operate 170s, these would be Cross Country )), but they are pretty common.

Yes you are right. I've never got on one of these jokingly-named services since the rebranding so it's not sunk in yet. The thought of poxy little 170s being given such a title seems quite bonkers to me. I suppose that means all the Norwich services must be 158s then? I'm sure I've almost always had 170s on that route in the past.

 

[Pumbaa]

I suppose that means all the Norwich services must be 158s then? I'm sure I've almost always had 170s on that route in the past.

Well yep, EMT got the 158s from CT, LM the 170s. Bit unfair really. Do NXEA operate from Norwich to Peterborough?

 

[yorkie]

Well yep, EMT got the 158s from CT, LM the 170s. Bit unfair really. Do NXEA operate from Norwich to Peterborough?

No - they are East Midlands services, most run to/from Liverpool. Very odd as it's a Cross Country route, that mostly operates outside the East Midlands. Meanwhile many services that terminate in the East Midlands are branded Cross Country, and they don't really cross the country much and certainly don't live up to the former name which used to mean a decent-length express train with a buffet car etc.

What a farce! No wonder we're confused about which service is operated by which operator... let alone the normals!

For the record, I think the 158s are clearly better than 170s and are far more suited to 'Inter City'-type journeys, and SWT certainly agree on that having swapped 170s for 158s. But I agree with you that it's unfair on EMT, because the ex-Central 158s are in an abysmal condition. They should all be refurbished immediately to the same standard as SWT's. SWT didn't like the interior of ex-TPE 158s - yet they were far better than the ex-Central ones are!

 

[djw1981]

No - they are East Midlands services, most run to/from Liverpool. Very odd as it's a Cross Country route, that mostly operates outside the East Midlands. Meanwhile many services that terminate in the East Midlands are branded Cross Country, and they don't really cross the country much and certainly don't live up to the former name which used to mean a decent-length express train with a buffet car etc.

What a farce! No wonder we're confused about which service is operated by which operator... let alone the normals!

Personally I feel that the Liverpool-Norwich should be given to XC. I guess the only issue would be where to base the fleet, and if a 170 cannot be described as 'Cross Country" then a 158 cannot given they are far worse IMO. But maybe I'm just comparing FSR 170 and 158's.

 

[stut]

You may also see NXEA 170s at Peterborough, though, on their way to Liverpool St via Ipswich (only once every two hours...)

 

[jopsuk]

No - they are East Midlands services, most run to/from Liverpool. Very odd as it's a Cross Country route, that mostly operates outside the East Midlands. Meanwhile many services that terminate in the East Midlands are branded Cross Country, and they don't really cross the country much and certainly don't live up to the former name which used to mean a decent-length express train with a buffet car etc.

What a farce! No wonder we're confused about which service is operated by which operator... let alone the normals!

I agree- though apparently the Liverpool-Norwich service isn't included in Cross Country as it doesn't pass through Birmingham, the "hub" for the XC franchise.

In a more sesnible world* the XC franchise would, as you say, be formed entirely of proper length IC trains (whether loco or modern MU) with full facilities, and would take in essentially all IC-type services that don't serve London

 

[Waverley125]

you occasionally get Class 313s going to peterborough in dual sets, but usually only very late (after 10pm is I recall it was, calling finsbury park, New Barnet, Potters Bar, Welwyn Garden City, Knebworth, Stevenage & all stations to peterborough.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Never seen a 313 at Peterborough. Certainly not in service.... Maybe 2x 317s??

 

[ungreat]

you occasionally get Class 313s going to peterborough in dual sets, but usually only very late (after 10pm is I recall it was, calling finsbury park, New Barnet, Potters Bar, Welwyn Garden City, Knebworth, Stevenage & all stations to peterborough.

Who told you that? They aren't allowed north of Hitchin unless on test runs,and then only as far as Sandy because of their shoegear/tripcock clearance.The services you are referring to are the 0036 and 0136 KX-Pboro,and that can be either 317 or 365 (depending whats broken/not broken at the time),NEVER 313

After 2200 mon-fri there is the 2222 and 2322 to Peterboro' from KX,and both are 365 worked.

 

[Waverley125]

It was a while ago (March 2006) but twas defintley a 313. I rode it myself.

 

[t0ffeeman]

The last PBO service to call at those stations is the 1536, then theres a massive gap till the 0036 and 0136. The timetable is still the same...Are you sure it was't going to Letchworth or Royston??

 

[Waverley125]

defo since i rode it all the way to peterborough.