ECML problems today (16/5/23)

[johnnychips]

Trains had planned diversions today, and were being directed through Lincoln. However, it seems a train has broken down on this line, and there has been a separate incident at Northallerton.

I arrived a Doncaster at 1730 to a packed platform 3B. Announcements were made that passengers for London should take the 1742 to Sheffield and change there for St Pancras. The TPE train - 3-car naturally - left packed, and some were left behind, announcers telling them to take the following 1822 to Sheffield.

On the train, people got their apps out and deduced there was an 1837 from Sheffield arriving in St P at 2036. However, on leaving Meadowhall, the guard announced that EMR would not be accepting tickets, and passengers for London should now change at Stockport or Manchester. On arrival in Sheffield, the automated train announcement said ‘change here for [various stations] and London St Pancras’, which didn’t help. Most people were quite stoic; some said they would risk EMR.

Any more details of the incidents and why EMR weren’t accepting tickets?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Northallerton problem was a points failure, and delayed me on TPE further west, earlier in the day.
But I see NRE says that the fault has recurred.

Find details of current incidents | National Rail

A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

The points failure at Northallerton has reoccurred and is causing disruption to journeys through this station. Trains may be cancelled or delayed by up to 30 minutes.
Disruption is expected until the end of service.

On the Lincoln route, an engineer has been called to inspect the failed train near Spalding, arriving about now, so no update on resuming services.
The LNER advice on NRE is - do not travel:

Due to the severity of today's disruption and the number of cancellations across our route, LNER are advising customers not to travel between Peterborough and Doncaster (in both directions).
**Tickets for travel on Tuesday 16 May will be valid for use up until Friday 19 May. Please note that there are engineering works on Wednesday 17 May and so services are reduced.**

If you are unable to defer your journey, tickets will be accepted on the following:

• Thameslink services between Peterborough and London St Pancras International
• Avanti West Coast between Scotland / Manchester and London Euston (in both directions)
• Northern services between Newcastle and Carlisle, Doncaster and Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester
• TransPennine Express between Manchester / Doncaster / Leeds and York.

Note that EMR is not on the ticket acceptance list.


The failed train might be GC's 180 106 1219 Sunderland-King's Cross.
The RTT page is a bit of a mess, so hard to tell what happened.

Realtime Trains | 1A65 1219 Sunderland to Doncaster | 16/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 1A65 1219 departure from Sunderland to Doncaster on 16/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

PS - Looks like it was a freight train that failed, not GC's 180 (see #4).
I beg its pardon.

 

[yorkie]

What needs to happen is enough passengers just say 'enough is enough'; stick with the advice to travel via Sheffield and refuse to pay; what are EMR going to be able to do when a large group of passengers simply says they are doing as advised and refuse to pay? I'd have been happy to join the passengers sticking with the original itinerary and I'd have been quite prepared to argue with any member of EMR staff who wanted an argument.

By all means advise people to take less busy routes, but they cannot threaten to charge anyone for following the advice to travel via Sheffield.

Unfortunately this sort of behaviour is not untypical of the rail industry in Great Britain; it's disgraceful but I am not surprised.

 

[66701GBRF]

Failed train was freight 4L87, seized axle. Finally moved to the Werrington dive under.

 

[2L70]

EMR are accepting LNER tickets.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Grand Central are advising that passengers travelling to Bradford on the 1957 from Kings Cross should travel via Chester!

Passengers for Bradford Interchange and Halifax to board the same 2002 Avanti West Coast service towards Holyhead, alighting at Chester. From Chester, board the 2229 Northern service towards Leeds. This service will stop at Halifax and Bradford Interchange.

 

[Kite159]

Grand Central are advising that passengers travelling to Bradford on the 1957 from Kings Cross should travel via Chester!

Looks to be an arrival within 23 minutes of the GC service (due to the added time the GC would have taken going via Lincoln) (GC - 00:01, Northern - 00:23). I was expecting it to be something bad like 2 hours +

 

[158801]

What needs to happen is enough passengers just say 'enough is enough'; stick with the advice to travel via Sheffield and refuse to pay; what are EMR going to be able to do when a large group of passengers simply says they are doing as advised and refuse to pay? I'd have been happy to join the passengers sticking with the original itinerary and I'd have been quite prepared to argue with any member of EMR staff who wanted an argument.

By all means advise people to take less busy routes, but they cannot threaten to charge anyone for following the advice to travel via Sheffield.

Unfortunately this sort of behaviour is not untypical of the rail industry in Great Britain; it's disgraceful but I am not surprised.

This is typical of LNER though. At the first opportunity they love to palm their passengers onto any other service. As long as they are “out of their hair”. When the boot is on the other foot they are very reluctant to accept tickets from other TOCs

 

[ajp999]

EMR's InterCity operation now primarily consists of 5 carriage services apart from a few doubled up services in the peak which I suspect is the main reason for no ticket acceptance. There have also been a few cancelled trains or terminating short due to driver shortages today which will also not help. Would be interesting to know if EMR were asked to run more doubled up services due to engineering work on the ECML as part of the wider industry plan for this blockade but I suspect I already know the answer.

Not the first time recently (and will not be the last) that the planned diversion route for engineering works has become unavailable for a considerable length of time. Hopefully this will be picked up as part of the review of incidents such as this.

 

[Peterthegreat]

What needs to happen is enough passengers just say 'enough is enough'; stick with the advice to travel via Sheffield and refuse to pay; what are EMR going to be able to do when a large group of passengers simply says they are doing as advised and refuse to pay? I'd have been happy to join the passengers sticking with the original itinerary and I'd have been quite prepared to argue with any member of EMR staff who wanted an argument.

By all means advise people to take less busy routes, but they cannot threaten to charge anyone for following the advice to travel via Sheffield.

Unfortunately this sort of behaviour is not untypical of the rail industry in Great Britain; it's disgraceful but I am not surprised.

The LNER website (which I think has lifted the info from the National Rail one) states tickets are valid on EMR. However that information is not repeated under ticket acceptance......

 

[APT618S]

The Northallerton problem was a points failure,

I was on 1V50 0606 Edinburgh to Plymouth HST this morning and just north of Northallerton we crossed over from the Up Fast to the Down Fast line and travelled through platform 2 (the usual northbound platform) before crossing back to the Up Fast. Fortunately we only lost 10mins.

 

[3rd rail land]

What needs to happen is enough passengers just say 'enough is enough'; stick with the advice to travel via Sheffield and refuse to pay; what are EMR going to be able to do when a large group of passengers simply says they are doing as advised and refuse to pay? I'd have been happy to join the passengers sticking with the original itinerary and I'd have been quite prepared to argue with any member of EMR staff who wanted an argument.

By all means advise people to take less busy routes, but they cannot threaten to charge anyone for following the advice to travel via Sheffield.

Unfortunately this sort of behaviour is not untypical of the rail industry in Great Britain; it's disgraceful but I am not surprised.

Surely EMR could issue the passengers with penalty fares or if an RPI is doing the ticket checks report them for prosecution? IF the passengers then refused to accept a penalty fare or give their details then EMR might have to conede or wait for the BTP to attend.

This is typical of LNER though. At the first opportunity they love to palm their passengers onto any other service. As long as they are “out of their hair”. When the boot is on the other foot they are very reluctant to accept tickets from other TOCs

Yep, a TOC that simply does not like helping out.

Ultimately did EMR have the capacity to assist? Maybe they thought the quantity of additional passengers would overwhelm their services?

 

[LowLevel]

You just end up with St Pancras having the usual issue of bursting at the seams with overcrowding nowadays or trains leaving Sheffield packed and then not being able to pick anyone up along the rest of the route, causing the MML to collapse too. What's the solution, tell MML passengers who can't board as a result to try diverting to the West Coast to service LNER?

The days of shovelling everyone on to a length HST or at least being able to stand all the way down a 7 car 222 are gone, the 5 car 222s have no capacity to absorb additional passengers and it turns into a route wide farce on the MML every time the ECML collapses.

The MML functions, just about, day to day - but has absolutely no resilience for excess passenger loadings.

A 9 car 801 seats over 600, a 5 car 222 seats less than 250.

Today is worse than normal with several cancellations for lack of drivers too.

 

[liamf656]

Ultimately did EMR have the capacity to assist? Maybe they thought the quantity of additional passengers would overwhelm their services?

They usually can take on either the ECML or the WCML, *just*. The reason ticket acceptance was revoked was because of a trespasser at Derby causing 60+ minute delays at around 17:00 this evening. There were also a handful of full/part cancellations due to driver shortages

 

[3rd rail land]

You just end up with St Pancras having the usual issue of bursting at the seams with overcrowding nowadays or trains leaving Sheffield packed and then not being able to pick anyone up along the rest of the route, causing the MML to collapse too. What's the solution, tell MML passengers who can't board as a result to try diverting to the West Coast to service LNER?

The days of shovelling everyone on to a length HST or at least being able to stand all the way down a 7 car 222 are gone, the 5 car 222s have no capacity to absorb additional passengers and it turns into a route wide farce on the MML every time the ECML collapses.

The MML functions, just about, day to day - but has absolutely no resilience for excess passenger loadings.

A 9 car 801 seats over 600, a 5 car 222 seats less than 250.

Today is worse than normal with several cancellations for lack of drivers too.

Sounds like EMR really didn't have capacity to assist and put their passengers first, quite righty. Sending passengers to Manchester for Avanti was probably the only remaining option for LNER. The thing is the typical passenger may not appreciate the reasons for EMR not accepting passengers from other TOCs and just think they don't care but this doesn't seem to be the case today.

 

[liamf656]

There was also a lot of carnage at St Pancras after around 17:00 with a lot of Tweets claiming that hundreds were stuck behind the barriers with announcements from station staff that their service was full and standing, despite that being untrue. Photos also showed this

17:17 STP-COR

https://twitter.com/fakename_1/status/1658508163727892481?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

@EastMidRailway what on earth is happening on platforms 1-4 at @StPancrasInt ? Staff absolutely clueless blocking the platform. Not allowing people on the train. It’s 1/2 full and you’ve left 100s of people stuck in a queue

https://twitter.com/dupeeeee/status/1658516248869601283?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

@EastMidRailway thanks for the staff decision at London St Pancras we missed out 17.17 train to Corby. I now have to wait for the 17.47 as no information given. Please advice if we will be getting compensation for this delay?

17:32 STP-SHF

https://twitter.com/sandmanc136/status/1658513434948796431?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

@EastMidRailway how on earth am I meant to get home tonight. Not letting anyone on the 17:32 to East Mids Parkway. Absolute shamble

17:35 STP-NOT

https://twitter.com/richardcarter/status/1658512041248735234?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

An absolute ****show at St Pancras today - the 1735 departed with most of the passengers stuck in a queue waiting to get on the train. Total local of information from staff at the station other than “wait in the queue”. Insanely badly organised, @EastMidRailway

https://twitter.com/tom_issitt/status/1658521418701602822?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

17:35 is also very empty… I had to fight for my life to get on this train

17:47 STP-COR

https://twitter.com/vicky_rea/status/1658518447079161861?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

@EastMidRailway Today customers with booked tickets for the 17.47 St Pancras to Corby were held back from boarding by British Transport Police and EMR staff. No explanation, rude staff. Will paying customers refused boarding get a refund?

https://twitter.com/hollyhlt/status/1658518602255826947?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

The platform of commuters trapped behind the barriers at St Pancras / told the trains are full VS the train that’s just left at 17.47

https://twitter.com/aliogilvy/status/1658534690955902981?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

Yup I missed this train as it was apparently ‘full’

18:05 STP - NOT (18:02 to SHF cancelled)

https://twitter.com/slowplodder/status/1658519527355711491?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

@EastMidRailway what the hell is going on. St Pancras really busy and you are letting empty trains leave. Absolute chaos!! Sort it out!

https://twitter.com/egertonsport/status/1658520011495944193?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

Is there anyone @EastMidRailway who can explain why 1805 train from St Pancras left with passengers waiting to get on it? Some sort of explanation would help and your contract staff who are understandably stopping passengers at the barrier, can't help..

 

[SuspectUsual]

There was also a lot of carnage at St Pancras after around 17:00 with a lot of Tweets claiming that hundreds were stuck behind the barriers with announcements from station staff that their service was full and standing, despite that being untrue. Photos also showed this (please be aware the language used in some of these tweets aren’t RF friendly so I won’t quote them)

17:17 STP-COR

https://twitter.com/fakename_1/status/1658508163727892481?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

https://twitter.com/dupeeeee/status/1658516248869601283?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

17:32 STP-SHF

https://twitter.com/sandmanc136/status/1658513434948796431?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

17:35 STP-NOT

https://twitter.com/richardcarter/status/1658512041248735234?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

https://twitter.com/tom_issitt/status/1658521418701602822?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

17:47 STP-COR

https://twitter.com/vicky_rea/status/1658518447079161861?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

https://twitter.com/hollyhlt/status/1658518602255826947?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

18:05 STP - NOT (18:02 to SHF cancelled)

https://twitter.com/slowplodder/status/1658519527355711491?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

https://twitter.com/egertonsport/status/1658520011495944193?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

Interesting that EMR don't seem to have replied to any of those 9 tweets, yet did find time to reply to someone thanking them for a free first class upgrade

Priorities

 

[liamf656]

Interesting that EMR don't seem to have replied to any of those 9 tweets, yet did find time to reply to someone thanking them for a free first class upgrade

Priorities

Just to note it wasn’t limited to those 9 tweets either, as a lot of them weren’t specific on train times. I wonder why it went so wrong

 

[43066]

What needs to happen is enough passengers just say 'enough is enough'; stick with the advice to travel via Sheffield and refuse to pay; what are EMR going to be able to do when a large group of passengers simply says they are doing as advised and refuse to pay? I'd have been happy to join the passengers sticking with the original itinerary and I'd have been quite prepared to argue with any member of EMR staff who wanted an argument.

By all means advise people to take less busy routes, but they cannot threaten to charge anyone for following the advice to travel via Sheffield.

Unfortunately this sort of behaviour is not untypical of the rail industry in Great Britain; it's disgraceful but I am not surprised.

EMR are entitled to refuse ticket acceptance if they consider that they cannot accommodate hoards of passengers from other TOCs. Note the overtime ban is affecting them too, and the fleet is thinly stretched. That isn’t a decision that can be overruled by passengers.

If people want to ask that’s up to them, but if the answer is no they need to respect it. Following your advice above is likely to lead to confrontations with staff, potentially the police being called, and possible prosecutions.

 

[yorkie]

EMR are entitled to refuse ticket acceptance if they consider that they cannot accommodate hoards of passengers from other TOCs. Note the overtime ban is affecting them too, and the fleet is thinly stretched. That isn’t a decision that can be overruled by passengers.

If people follow your advice above it is likely to lead to confrontations with staff, potentially the police being called, and possible prosecutions.

Once passengers have set off from Doncaster for St Pancras, and are following the advice given, it wouldn't be lawful for EMR to charge them for continuing to follow that advice.

Once authorisation has been given to travel via an alternative route (under NRCoT 6.1.2) this validates the ticket via the alternative route and this cannot be subsequently/retrospectively revoked; once passengers start embarking on the alternative, it has to be honoured.

An overriding principle during disruptive incidents is that passengers should not be discriminated against on the basis of operator. This includes passengers travelling on TOC-specific tickets.

If staff choose to create confrontations, that would be a poor choice, however given the trains were clearly too busy for staff to actually go through checking tickets, it's probably a moot point! There is no chance of the police ejecting a passenger en-route due to the passenger following advice to get from Yorkshire to London. A prosecution is absolutely fanciful; it would not succeed and would generate extremely negative publicity for EMR.

There was also a lot of carnage at St Pancras after around 17:00 with a lot of Tweets claiming that hundreds were stuck behind the barriers with announcements from station staff that their service was full and standing, despite that being untrue. Photos also showed this (please be aware the language used in some of these tweets aren’t RF friendly so I won’t quote them)

17:17 STP-COR

https://twitter.com/fakename_1/status/1658508163727892481?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

https://twitter.com/dupeeeee/status/1658516248869601283?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

17:32 STP-SHF

https://twitter.com/sandmanc136/status/1658513434948796431?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

17:35 STP-NOT

https://twitter.com/richardcarter/status/1658512041248735234?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

https://twitter.com/tom_issitt/status/1658521418701602822?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

17:47 STP-COR

https://twitter.com/vicky_rea/status/1658518447079161861?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

https://twitter.com/hollyhlt/status/1658518602255826947?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

18:05 STP - NOT (18:02 to SHF cancelled)

https://twitter.com/slowplodder/status/1658519527355711491?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

https://twitter.com/egertonsport/status/1658520011495944193?s=46&t=0v-fEDxFw2XTYyEM53ER3Q

I'd like to say I am shocked at EMR's actions, or at least mildly surprised, but I am not.

 

[liamf656]

Once passengers have set off from Doncaster for St Pancras, and are following the advice given, it wouldn't be lawful for EMR to charge them for continuing to follow that advice.

In this specific situation I would have gone to Tamworth or Manchester and changed to a WCML service as the new advice stated, or even return to my origin. As I understand, Avanti and LNWR were also accepting tickets. I see where you’re coming from but if I was told that EMR were no longer accepting my ticket I wouldn’t travel on them and certainly wouldn’t be encouraging others to go against that, both on here and on twitter, no matter how much I disagree with the decision.

 

[yorkie]

In this specific situation I would have gone to Tamworth or Manchester and changed to a WCML service as the new advice stated, or even return to my origin. As I understand, Avanti and LNWR were also accepting tickets. I see where you’re coming from but if I was told that EMR were no longer accepting my ticket I wouldn’t travel on them and certainly wouldn’t be encouraging others to go against that, both on here and on twitter, no matter how much I disagree with the decision.

Informing people other routes may be more suitable is fine, but people cannot be (wrongly and incorrectly) told their tickets aren't valid; it's not lawful behaviour for EMR to do that.

 

[Dave91131]

The issues described in this thread regarding LNER ticket acceptance by other operators (or lack of it) and the MML just about managing to function day to day with matchbox sized trains only reinforce my views of the railway we now have:

Unfit for purpose, unreliable, poor value for money, poor levels of comfort, and totally anti customer.

 

[GC class B1]

EMR are entitled to refuse ticket acceptance if they consider that they cannot accommodate hoards of passengers from other TOCs. Note the overtime ban is affecting them too, and the fleet is thinly stretched. That isn’t a decision that can be overruled by passengers.

If people want to ask that’s up to them, but if the answer is no they need to respect it. Following your advice above is likely to lead to confrontations with staff, potentially the police being called, and possible prosecutions.

I worked in the nationalised railway industry for nearly 30 years. Providing the customer with the best service was viewed by the majority of railway staff as the purpose of the industry, particularly with the creation of the business sectors. The railway was a community and there was cooperation between departments to provide the best customer service. Privatisation and “competition“ appears to have largely destroyed the attitude that we are all here to provide a service to the passengers. It seems that profit has become more important than providing the customer with the service they expect and the industry is poorer for it. I agree with @yorkie that it is time customers took a stand and insisted that our railway gives them the service they (and all taxpayers) are paying over the odds for.
It is not acceptable that passengers who have bought a ticket to a destination are denied the best option for alternative travel arrangements when the original contracted journey is not available to them.

 

[43066]

Once passengers have set off from Doncaster for St Pancras, and are following the advice given, it wouldn't be lawful for EMR to charge them for continuing to follow that advice.

An overriding principle during disruptive incidents is that passengers should not be discriminated against on the basis of operator. This includes passengers travelling on TOC-specific tickets.

If staff choose to create confrontations, that would be a poor choice, however given the trains were clearly too busy for staff to actually go through checking tickets, it's probably a moot point! There is no chance of the police ejecting a passenger en-route due to the passenger following advice to get from Yorkshire to London. A prosecution is absolutely fanciful; it would not succeed and would generate extremely negative publicity for EMR.

That’s your view, but the reality is that they will likely be refused travel because there is no ticket acceptance in place and that’s the end of it.

Once authorisation has been given to travel via an alternative route (under NRCoT 6.1.2) this validates the ticket via the alternative route and this cannot be subsequently/retrospectively revoked; once passengers start embarking on the alternative, it has to be honoured.

Maybe if they had been told ticket acceptance was in place by an EMR member of staff that would have some weight, but it sounds like they were told to “change at Sheffield” by a person unknown. Ticket acceptance had been arranged further on, so the correct thing to do was to change at Stockport or Manchester as instructed.

it's not lawful behaviour for EMR to do that.

I’m not going to argue about this. EMR have the legal right to decide who they let onto their trains, and their staff will be expected to follow instructions from management.

Putting the ticketing stuff aside, if you argue with staff, they ask you to leave and you refuse, you’re committing railway trespass. Arguing the toss might well result in them refusing to work the train forward with you on it, or radioing ahead to have police and revenue meet the train. This happens from time to time, and rest assured the police will take direction from the railway staff in this situation.

Surely EMR could issue the passengers with penalty fares or if an RPI is doing the ticket checks report them for prosecution? IF the passengers then refused to accept a penalty fare or give their details then EMR might have to conede or wait for the BTP to attend.

Yes they could and likely would. Especially as the vast majority of passengers would have done as instructed and used the correct ticket acceptance via Manchester.

Ultimately did EMR have the capacity to assist? Maybe they thought the quantity of additional passengers would overwhelm their services?

No they don’t have capacity because of the stock situation (shortly to get worse with the removal of the 180s), and that’s exactly what they would have declined ticket acceptance. There has been severe overcrowding on some routes, and a fair few cancellations.

In this specific situation I would have gone to Tamworth or Manchester and changed to a WCML service as the new advice stated, or even return to my origin. As I understand, Avanti and LNWR were also accepting tickets. I see where you’re coming from but if I was told that EMR were no longer accepting my ticket I wouldn’t travel on them and certainly wouldn’t be encouraging others to go against that, both on here and on twitter, no matter how much I disagree with the decision.

This is the approach people should take in this situation - that was clear to most people and was exactly what they did today.

People on this forum cannot override railway staff just because they don’t agree with a TOCs decision to refuse ticket acceptance.

I’ll leave it there!

 

[Watershed]

EMR are entitled to refuse ticket acceptance if they consider that they cannot accommodate hoards of passengers from other TOCs. Note the overtime ban is affecting them too, and the fleet is thinly stretched. That isn’t a decision that can be overruled by passengers.

If people want to ask that’s up to them, but if the answer is no they need to respect it. Following your advice above is likely to lead to confrontations with staff, potentially the police being called, and possible prosecutions.

In the circumstances, with LNER advising people to travel on other dates, it's clear that NRCoT 28.2 was engaged - people were likely to be stranded. All operators, including EMR, were therefore under an obligation to provide transport or accommodation for such passengers. That EMR wouldn't necessarily have the capacity to accommodate all passengers on their trains is irrelevant; they must make their best efforts to accommodate as many as they can, and to provide alternatives for the rest.

Trying to deny ticket acceptance is typical of the narrow-minded way that many TOCs tend to respond to these sorts of situations. They hope to make the stranded passengers someone else's problem, rather than doing their best to pull their weight.

As for pretending that ticket acceptance can simply be withdrawn whilst passengers are en-route and relying on it, it's clear that whoever enacted this change in messaging hasn't got a clue about any of the legal principles involved. Even from a purely pragmatic perspective, whilst I am all for telling customers that following previously given alternatives is no longer advisable, claiming that they will be penalised for doing so is bang out of order.

Unfortunately none of the poor customer service described here comes as any sort of surprise. It's about the sort of experience that people have come to expect.

 

[yorkie]

That’s your view, but the reality is that they will likely be refused travel because there is no ticket acceptance in place and that’s the end of it.

That would be unlawful; in practice it sounds like plenty of passengers did indeed travel via the MML, where EMR liked it or not.

Maybe if they had been told ticket acceptance was in place by an EMR member of staff that would have some weight, but it sounds like they were told to “change at Sheffield” by a person unknown. Ticket acceptance had been arranged further on, so the correct thing to do was to change at Stockport or Manchester as instructed.

There is nothing in the NRCoT to say that ticket acceptance can only be given by staff of a particular company; the ticket acceptance did have weight and EMR cannot renege on this.

I’m not going to argue about this. EMR have the legal right to decide who they let onto their trains, and their staff will be expected to follow instructions from management.

Unfortunately they don't.

Putting the ticketing stuff aside, if you argue with staff, they ask you to leave and you refuse, you’re committing railway trespass.

A passenger who is travelling on a different company under NRCoT 6.1.2 is not in any way trespassing and nothing EMR may say can change that.

Arguing the toss might well result in them refusing to work the train forward with you on it, or radioing ahead to have police and revenue meet the train. This happens from time to time, and rest assured the police will take direction from the railway staff in this situation.

Police do indeed sometimes behave inappropriately, but when there are huge numbers of passengers who are simply trying to get to where they need to be and have followed the advice given, I can't see the police removing vast numbers of people from the train. If it was a small number, then yes I could see the police acting unlawfully; it's certainly not unheard of.

Yes they could and likely would. Especially as the vast majority of passengers would have done as instructed and used the correct ticket acceptance via Manchester.

Well plenty of people made the journey via EMR by the sound of it; so let's see if the matter proceeds to court. I'd love to see it as it would be an embarrasing defeat for EMR, but they wouldn't be so foolish.

This is the approach people should take in this situation.

By all means advice people as such but it's wrong to threaten to charge people for following the original advice; people took the train from Doncaster to Sheffield on the understanding that they'd be allowed to travel onwards via EMR. By all means advise people it may be a more comfortable journey via Manchester on Avanti but that doesn't mean passengers can be charged extra.

 

[43066]

That EMR wouldn't necessarily have the capacity to accommodate all passengers on their trains is irrelevant; they must make their best efforts to accommodate as many as they can, and to provide alternatives for the rest.

This is a ridiculous and frankly irresponsible suggestion. I’m shocked that someone who has worked on the railway clearly has so little appreciation of the practicalities, or how reckless this approach would be.

Trying to deny ticket acceptance is typical of the narrow-minded way that many TOCs tend to respond to these sorts of situations. They hope to make the stranded passengers someone else's problem, rather than doing their best to pull their weight.

Narrow minded, are they, for trying to protect their own passengers and their own staff from dangerous crush loading - not that you care about either.

whilst I am all for telling customers that following previously given alternatives is no longer advisable, claiming that they will be penalised for doing so is bang out of order.

What’s bang out of order is actively advising people to get into confrontations with TOC staff.

That would be unlawful; in practice it sounds like plenty of passengers did indeed travel via the MML, where EMR liked it or not.

With respect I know exactly how the law works, and no, it wouldn’t be unlawful. It’s what happens every time ticket acceptance is refused. I can’t really say any more than that.

Unfortunately they don't.

So you’re suggesting something you’ve read in the NRCoT means you can walk up to a train and take it upon yourself to tell the staff you’re boarding it and there’s nothing they can do about it - in contradiction to the instructions their own management have given them - with no sanction at all….

How would you react to someone doing that in your workplace?

A passenger who is travelling on a different company under NRCoT 6.1.2 is not in any way trespassing and nothing EMR may say can change that.

NRCoT has nothing to do with railway trespass. Staff can refuse you travel and ask you to leave the railway if they consider it unsafe to convey you based on your behaviour (and ordering them to allow you to travel on their train will likely qualify as someone who might not seem safe to convey). Not doing so would indeed constitute railway trespass. Ticketing doesn’t come into it. Trust me, I’ve seen it happen with people with valid tickets who behave inappropriately.

I’m out of this one - I’m glad most passengers were sensible though to do the correct thing.

 

[yorkie]

This is a ridiculous and frankly irresponsible suggestion. I’m shocked that someone who has worked on the railway clearly has so little appreciation of the practicalities, or how reckless this approach would be.

Are you denying that when disruptive incidents occur, passengers should not be discriminated against on the basis of operator, and arguing that passengers on TOC specific tickets should be discriminated against?

Narrow minded, are they, for trying to protect their own passengers and their own staff from dangerous crush loading - not that you care about either.

Are you saying you don't care what the rules and guidelines in this situation are?

What’s bang out of order is actively advising people to get into confrontations with TOC staff.

No-one is "advising" people to "get into confrontations"; indeed anyone simply following the advice would be very unlikely to have any interaction with EMR staff, at least not at Sheffield or on board the train (maybe, just maybe at St Pancras, but given the volumes involved even that is unlikely)

What's bang out of order is defending EMR acting in a manner that completely disregards the agreed industry policies and the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

With respect I know exactly how the law works

Every area of law?

, and no, it wouldn’t be unlawful.

Yes it would.

It’s what happens every time ticket acceptance is refused. I can’t really say any more than that.

I'd be interested to see that claim backed up!

So you’re suggesting something you’ve read in the NRCoT means you can walk up to a train and take it upon yourself to tell the staff you’re boarding it, and there’s nothing they can do about it, with no sanction at all….

A passenger following the advice given at Doncaster could simply board the train at Sheffield, there is no need to inform anyone you are boarding.

NRCoT has nothing to do with railway trespass. Staff can refuse you travel and ask you to leave if they consider it unsafe to convey you based on your behaviour (and ordering them to allow you to travel on their train will likely qualify as someone who might not seem safe to convey).

Based on what behaviour? A passenger who is simply travelling in accordance with the NRCoT is not behaving in a manner that would warrant ejecting from the train.

Ticketing doesn’t come into it. Trust me I’ve seen it happen.

If you've seen unacceptable behaviour, that doesn't make it right. If the victims seek advice on here, we can do our best to get a good outcome for them.

I’m out of this one - I’m glad most passengers were sensible though to do the correct thing.

Those who followed the advice to change at Doncaster for EMR were also acting correctly, and lawfully.

 

[LowLevel]

To be fair it is the case that once people have set sail in accordance with advice re ticket acceptance they shouldn't be charged for continuing in the manner they were originally directed to.

Attempting to redirect them further is potentially sensible given conditions in the moment (a 9 or 11 car 390 from Manchester will absorb far more passengers than a 222, and a 6 car 185 if present to get them there with 1/3 2/3 doors is a far better crush loader too) but if some people do end up doing as originally directed there should never be a penalty.

"Please make sure you allow any customers already en route to complete their journey" quite often appears in staff messaging at the closure of ticket acceptance.

There have always been reasons for failing to explicitly encourage people to use certain routes though. One regular example when the West Coast was shut was hundreds of people disembarking from an IC train ex London at Derby intent on going to Stoke or Crewe to be confronted with a single car 153 unit.