ECML-Pontefract line chord

[Waverley125]

at the moment there are large problems with congestion on both the Wakefield line, and the hambleton curve for bringing trains from Doncaster into leeds.

Would a way of doing this be to link the ECML north of Doncaster to the Pontefract line, which it crosses over. This line avoids Wakefield and most of the congested station approach, so would allow a large number of trains to run through from Doncaster to leeds with the existing service on the Wakefield line not being compromised.

This would allow proposed services from Cleethorpes & Lincoln to leeds to run. The only difficulty would be accessing the terminating platforms at leeds, which are on the opposite side of the station to the Pontefract line junction.

 

[The North Briton]

Would a way of doing this be to link the ECML north of Doncaster to the Pontefract line, which it crosses over. This line avoids Wakefield and most of the congested station approach, so would allow a large number of trains to run through from Doncaster to leeds with the existing service on the Wakefield line not being compromised.

Eh? If you mean the Goole to Leeds via Knottingley line, this would involve either a reversing move at Castleford (which the handful of Goole to Leeds locals do), or running via Crofton and Wakefield, which is accessible from the ECML via Askern anyway. Of course, neither route would be electrified.
A far more useful bit of engineering would be to electrify Hambleton to Leeds, so that route is easily available for NXEC services in the event of a blockage on the West Riding.

 

[Spartacus]

It's not half as barmy as it first sounds considering there's no need to build any new railway, just use the Askern branch between Knottingley and Shaftholme Jn as Grand Northern plan to do. It's used for the odd service now, but apart from those and the odd diversion it's freight only.

Even with that though, it's still a long route into Leeds, probably the slowest of all possible direct routes from Doncaster, which would no doubt be slowed even more by the number of trains, local express, and freight in the area, especially around Stourton. Even then you've still to find a platform at Leeds. There's a hint at platforms 18 and 19 on the old NER loco sidings, but I'd rate those as being unlikely as best, being some distance from the main concourse.

 

[tbtc]

What's frustrating is that the Wakefield Westgate - Leeds line isn't *that* busy. Most hours there's two London trains, one Cross Country train, one stopper to Doncaster and one stopper to Sheffield - only five trains an hour on a double track line (a lot, but not a patch on what some two track lines have).

Obviously the speed differences are a problem, but surely not insurmountable?

 

[Mojo]

What's frustrating is that the Wakefield Westgate - Leeds line isn't *that* busy. Most hours there's two London trains, one Cross Country train, one stopper to Doncaster and one stopper to Sheffield - only five trains an hour on a double track line (a lot, but not a patch on what some two track lines have).

Indeed; what about Birmingham N St - Birmingham Intl which has 4tph local making a variety of stops, together with 3 Pendolinos per hour (non stop), 1 XC and 1 Arriva Wales (non stop). Add to that freight and other limited services at Stechford.

Other lines into major cities are just as bad - around 8tph entering Bristol through Stapleton Road, around 10tph entering Birmingham through Five Ways and much more.

 

[tbtc]

Indeed; what about Birmingham N St - Birmingham Intl which has 4tph local making a variety of stops, together with 3 Pendolinos per hour (non stop), 1 XC and 1 Arriva Wales (non stop). Add to that freight and other limited services at Stechford.

Other lines into major cities are just as bad - around 8tph entering Bristol through Stapleton Road, around 10tph entering Birmingham through Five Ways and much more.

Good example - a logistical nightmare! Yet my Voyager between Sheffield and Leeds gets stuck behind a "stopper" far too often - there must be some better way to co-ordinate things

 

[bluenoxid]

Add in train crossing the lines at Wakefield Westgate twice plus the fact that the trains are all on the flat when the lines split towards Sheffield. In addition there is the local at Adwick towards Donny.

I wonder if using the bridge for the Sheffield to York line to create a flyover in addition to a bay at Wakefield Westgate would deliver better capacity improvements

 

[Spartacus]

It's not just about number but the stopping pattern. Locals to Doncaster have to make it all the way there before they're caught up with an ECML service, locals to Sheffield have to make Aldwarke, then as mentioned there are other services using the same lines at around Leeds, Wakefield, Moorthorpe - Sheffield, Adwick - Doncaster and junctions in between, and that's before you think about any freight.

 

[yorksrob]

What's frustrating is that the Wakefield Westgate - Leeds line isn't *that* busy. Most hours there's two London trains, one Cross Country train, one stopper to Doncaster and one stopper to Sheffield - only five trains an hour on a double track line (a lot, but not a patch on what some two track lines have).

Obviously the speed differences are a problem, but surely not insurmountable?

I agree - it's hardly Borough Market!

That said, my main bugbear about this line is that the very last train from London to Leeds of a night (at around 11:00) is always diverted around the Pontefract line so that for anybody trying to get back to Wakefield or the Five Towns the last train leaving London is at 8:30!. When I asked GNER (as it was at this time) the reason for this I was told that Network Rail closed the line for engineering works. Now I understand as much as the next person that engineering works need to take place but are they really necessary every night in perpetuity? It's not as if the line has vast numbers of tunnels and viaducts that make it more awkward to maintain than most lines. Whenever the Station Master at Leeds comes out for a meet the manager session I always ask him why this is the case and he always passes my query to Network Rail yet I never hear anything back.

That said, If they must divert these trains, it would be nice if they could at least stop them somewhere in the Wakefield area so that we're not clobbered with a £30 taxi fare from Leeds - even if this requires a reversal.

 

[Max]

That said, my main bugbear about this line is that the very last train from London to Leeds of a night (at around 11:00) is always diverted around the Pontefract line so that for anybody trying to get back to Wakefield or the Five Towns the last train leaving London is at 8:30!. When I asked GNER (as it was at this time) the reason for this I was told that Network Rail closed the line for engineering works. Now I understand as much as the next person that engineering works need to take place but are they really necessary every night in perpetuity? It's not as if the line has vast numbers of tunnels and viaducts that make it more awkward to maintain than most lines. Whenever the Station Master at Leeds comes out for a meet the manager session I always ask him why this is the case and he always passes my query to Network Rail yet I never hear anything back.

I believe the 2330 from King's Cross can go any number of different routes - Askern, Wakefield Kirkgate, Hambleton etc. This is simply for route retention purposes. I don't think engineering works have anything to do with it particularly.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe the 2330 from King's Cross can go any number of different routes - Askern, Wakefield Kirkgate, Hambleton etc. This is simply for route retention purposes. I don't think engineering works have anything to do with it particularly.

Thats interesting, and I suppose that could well be the only time of day when they have a spare HST available to do it in. All the same, it seems an indictment of the system that route knowledge/running rights can't be retained without seriously inconveniencing such a large area of population all the time.

 

[87015]

Thats interesting, and I suppose that could well be the only time of day when they have a spare HST available to do it in. All the same, it seems an indictment of the system that route knowledge/running rights can't be retained without seriously inconveniencing such a large area of population all the time.

It can be done without affecting passengers in the slightest. Buts its cheaper to just use a train you are already running and sod the passengers than run non-passenger route learning duties additionally.

 

[bluenoxid]

I agree - it's hardly Borough Market!

That said, my main bugbear about this line is that the very last train from London to Leeds of a night (at around 11:00) is always diverted around the Pontefract line so that for anybody trying to get back to Wakefield or the Five Towns the last train leaving London is at 8:30!. When I asked GNER (as it was at this time) the reason for this I was told that Network Rail closed the line for engineering works. Now I understand as much as the next person that engineering works need to take place but are they really necessary every night in perpetuity? It's not as if the line has vast numbers of tunnels and viaducts that make it more awkward to maintain than most lines. Whenever the Station Master at Leeds comes out for a meet the manager session I always ask him why this is the case and he always passes my query to Network Rail yet I never hear anything back.

That said, If they must divert these trains, it would be nice if they could at least stop them somewhere in the Wakefield area so that we're not clobbered with a £30 taxi fare from Leeds - even if this requires a reversal.

I have a 21:30. Arrive Leeds 23:59. Wakey 23:42.

LUCKY YOU :-x

 

[Spartacus]

Nat Ex and GNER before them have had route learners booked for the area but very rarely use the paths. Of course, it means having crews and locos spare in the middle of the day.

 

[yorksrob]

I have a 21:30. Arrive Leeds 23:59. Wakey 23:42.

LUCKY YOU :-x

Oops, apologies for the typo! To be honest I've given up trying to get back from gigs etc on the night and tend to stay over. That said I'm getting on a bit and could do with not having to sleep on friends floors or forking out for hotels everytime so it's pretty frustrating having an excellently timed Leeds train that just dosen't stop anywhere near Wakey. On the plus side when I go back the next day I tend to spread out at leisure on EMT's HST so it's not all doom and gloom.

 

[Waverley125]

on the line at the moment you have

2tph Leeds-London
1tph Leeds-Doncaster
1tph Doncaster-Adwick
1tph Leeds-Moorthorpe

and 2 cross country services, so 7tph in total. Not too bad, but the reason it's congested is that there are no loops at any of the intermediate stations, which means a late-running stopper cannot be passed, which in turn has a knock-on delay for the rest of the day.

Installing loops at Adwick, Fitzwilliam and Outwood would allow express services to pass while the stoppers were held in the loops.

 

[tbtc]

on the line at the moment you have

2tph Leeds-London
1tph Leeds-Doncaster
1tph Doncaster-Adwick
1tph Leeds-Moorthorpe

and 2 cross country services, so 7tph in total. Not too bad, but the reason it's congested is that there are no loops at any of the intermediate stations, which means a late-running stopper cannot be passed, which in turn has a knock-on delay for the rest of the day.

Installing loops at Adwick, Fitzwilliam and Outwood would allow express services to pass while the stoppers were held in the loops.

I agre with your conclusion, but there's currently only an hourly Cross Country service (the "other" one runs via Doncaster)...

 

[Waverley125]

yes but XC want to move it to run via leeds instead

 

[Tomnick]

I wouldn't fancy being on a stopper with a journey time extended by 20-30 minutes* as a result of being booked inside loops three times. They're fine as a way of dealing with out-of-course working, but do they really do much to improve capacity without knackering the local service?

* - taking an example headway of 4 minutes, your local needs to be inside 4 minutes before the express is booked to pass, and then can't be booked to leave for a further 4 minutes...so that's 8 minutes per loop. I'm sure there's the potential to reduce the planned headway slightly if a stopper's starting away behind an express, but to balance that, there's the possibility that the booked time of the express might be a minute or two later due to constraints at one end or the other.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Good example - a logistical nightmare! Yet my Voyager between Sheffield and Leeds gets stuck behind a "stopper" far too often - there must be some better way to co-ordinate things

They should have never closed the old Midland route via Cudworth :roll:

 

[Waverley125]

the point of a stopper is that it is slower. On the Doncaster/Wakefield/Sheffield-Leeds corridors there will already be fast trains for people to take.

 

[Spartacus]

You can't say you can slow down the stoppers and they'll be OK, no matter how slow they are. If you slow your stoppers down much people say 'forget that, I'll get the bus, drive or not bother'.

One idea on that corridor if an extra stopper could be put in would be to send it via Wakefield Kirkgate, then up to Westgate, but then you miss out Sandal & Agbrigg. The biggest pinch point for services through Westgate after Donny and Whitehall Jn is Swinton to Masborough, which to one extent or another massively influences timetables throughout the area. If this was requadrupled and the Mexborough - Aldwarke line via Thrybergh doubled it'd almost eliminate the serious capacity problems there and possibly beyond.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe they could get away with not overtaking the stoppers too often. True, it may be worth having loops at more than one location along the route as fast trains may come up against stoppers in different places but that dosen't necessarily mean they'll need to overtake at every one.