ECML - HS1 link and Stratford International

[tasky]

It seems to be a commonly accepted fact that Stratford International was intended to be the sole London stop for doomed north-of-London Eurostars and that St Pancras would be bypassed by any such services.

However, looking at the layout of the chord linking HS1 and the east coast mainline (just north of St Pancras) it looks like to get from the ECML to HS1 a train would have to go into St Pancras, and reverse out.

Does this mean that the commonly accepted fact about Stratford International is wrong? Or would trains enter St Pancras but not stop? Or is there something else going on?

 

[59CosG95]

The doomed "Regional Eurostar" was withdrawn while Eurostar still operated out of Waterloo.
IIRC, trains would have had to use the WLL (and NLL in the ECML's case) to reach the WCML/ECML.
I'm unsure if the proposed-and-then-rejected King's X Low Level had any detailed design work for north of London routes, however.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does this mean that the commonly accepted fact about Stratford International is wrong?

Yes it’s wrong. I’ve never heard it being ‘commonly accepted’ before.

 

[zwk500]

Or would trains enter St Pancras but not stop?

How would they achieve this without giving grave concern to the hotel immediately opposite?

 

[Sunil_P]

How would they achieve this without giving grave concern to the hotel immediately opposite?

Opposite? It's the same building!

 

[takno]

Opposite? It's the same building!

That just makes the concern more pressing.

 

[zwk500]

Opposite? It's the same building!

The hotel across the front has a big archway the train could fit through at platform level

 

[Sunil_P]

That just makes the concern more pressing.

I know, that's my point!

 

[tasky]

Yes it’s wrong. I’ve never heard it being ‘commonly accepted’ before.

The claim features in virtually every popular account of the station's purpose, including on its Wikipedia page, with a citation to a 2006 article from the Times newspaper, which says:

"London and Continental Railways (LCR), which built the station and is completing the 186mph Channel Tunnel Rail Link, said that Stratford International had been conceived as the London stop for Eurostar services from northern England. Trains were supposed to start in Manchester or Leeds and skirt round the edge of Central London on their way to the Channel Tunnel."

Ghost train station that cost £210m

A VAST new international railway station was completed yesterday but will remain empty indefinitely because Eurostar is reluctant to stop there. Stratford International was billed as East London’s

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

The claim features in virtually every popular account of the station's purpose, including on its Wikipedia page, with a citation to a 2006 article from the Times newspaper, which says:

"London and Continental Railways (LCR), which built the station and is completing the 186mph Channel Tunnel Rail Link, said that Stratford International had been conceived as the London stop for Eurostar services from northern England. Trains were supposed to start in Manchester or Leeds and skirt round the edge of Central London on their way to the Channel Tunnel."

Ghost train station that cost £210m

A VAST new international railway station was completed yesterday but will remain empty indefinitely because Eurostar is reluctant to stop there. Stratford International was billed as East London’s

www.thetimes.co.uk

If it was always part of the plan, why wasn't it included in the Act of Parliament authorising HS1?

 

[tasky]

If it was always part of the plan, why wasn't it included in the Act of Parliament authorising HS1?

Yes, I'm not saying it was - just that it is odd that LCR was apparently telling people it was when the track layout seems to have been incompatible with that role.

 

[zwk500]

Yes, I'm not saying it was - just that it is odd that LCR was apparently telling people it was when the track layout seems to have been incompatible with that role.

Well LCR were hardly going to say 'we had no use for it anyway, we don't know why we built it'. And there is a direct connection to the WCML that avoids St Pancras, so direct trains to Manchester, Birmingham and Edinburgh/Glasgow were perfectly possible.

 

[MarkyT]

Trains from the WCML could have used the direct curve from the NLL without going into St P. Those from the ECML would have had to reverse in the station, whether it was a commercial stop or not. I think many if not all the Nightstar sleepers would have gone into the terminus for a traction change. In addition, there was a connection designed in from the MML, also with a reversal required in the terminus; the track is there but it's never been properly signalled so can only be used as a transfer siding and isn't suitable for passenger services. I'm a bit confused about timelines as I believe all these connections were completed after decisions to abandon NoL Eurostar and Nightstar, but I guess they were in the contract so got built anyway. The viaduct for the direct NLL connection was built for double track but has only ever carried a single line.

 

[Bald Rick]

The purpose of the station was to enable regeneration of the Stratford area, which it has done rather well. It’s reasonable to assume the Olympics wouldn’t have come in 2012 without it.

it’s also true that the international facility at Stratford was intended for use for trains ex the WCML (hence the insistence of MPs, when approving the act, of including at great expense the never used direct HS1 to NLL chord north of St P). But that was not the primary purpose of Stratford, and the ecml trains (if they had happened) were always intended to go into, and call, at St P.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The doomed "Regional Eurostar" was withdrawn while Eurostar still operated out of Waterloo.
IIRC, trains would have had to use the WLL (and NLL in the ECML's case) to reach the WCML/ECML.
I'm unsure if the proposed-and-then-rejected King's X Low Level had any detailed design work for north of London routes, however.

KX LL would have Thameslink tunnels out onto the MML and ECML. There would have been a chord at West Hampstead from the MML to the NLL to allow Regional Eurostar transfers.

Had the KX Low Level tunnel been selected, I would imagine it would have been severely scaled on cost grounds, probably nothing more than a Thameslink station and a small annex for regional Eurostar services. Leaving the Eurostar forever left at Waterloo