• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ECML Farce - OHLE down

Status
Not open for further replies.

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,494
Location
Yorkshire
In any case, I'm going to have a moan at GNER via one of their comments forms. As many people have already done that night...
Dear Sir,

We apologise that your booked train departed 44 minutes late and arrived 25 minutes early. As part of our compensation scheme, trains that arrive 25 minutes early incur a negative refund, as that is the inverse of a delay. Therefore, we request that you send £10 worth of vouchers to us.

Once again, we apologise for your train arriving early and any convenience this may have caused.

Yours faithfully,
GNER.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

CallySleeper

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2006
Messages
1,662
Location
trentbartonland
He was booked on the 21:00 (9pm) from King's Cross. He chose to leave earlier for the traction - which is his choice (i'd probably have done the same!) - but it didn't get him to York any quicker.
Yes. Had I been in his place and ready to leave at quarter past 4 and not hellbent on getting an HST then I could have been in York a few hours later - Pendolino then Voyager via the West Midlands.

How can it "always" be the case? You said "This backs up my opinion then that arriving hours early for a train during mass disruption does help.", and it does not back that up.
I don't understand your point here. Arriving earlier during disruption may or may not help however IMO it is always worth allowing extra time regardless, don't you agree? It's simply common sense. If NR advises you that your journey could be delayed by an hour because of line disruption, then you generally allow an extra hour for your journey expecting to get disrupted.

WSXFan arrived at the station earlier than anticipated. He left earlier than anticipated. Had it not have been for crap connections, his journey would have terminated earlier than anticipated.

No offence Peter B but why are you being so hugely defensive of the TOCs when this thing was to be honest a huge farce and a mess, which could have been dealt with much better by GNER and MML.
I don't feel as if I'm being defensive. If anything, I feel as I'm taking a neutral stance. That said, GNER (not MML IMO) were at fault. I don't see it as anything big enough to be calling it a farce or a mess or anything to write a rant at the TOC about. Like I said somewhere earlier, GNER can see the light at the end of thier tunnel. If they loose a few customers here and there occasionally it won't make a world of difference to them as they know they're going anyway. MML couldn't have done any more, thier trains were fully loaded as it was and KX staff were ignorant at sending passengers there.

Maybe I'm just too tolerant of disruption.
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,889
Yes. Had I been in his place and ready to leave at quarter past 4 and not hellbent on getting an HST then I could have been in York a few hours later - Pendolino then Voyager via the West Midlands.

And a much lighter wallet too - you would have had to pay for a single for this journey, as I'm pretty sure Virgin wouldn't have allowed you to do this journey with a GNER ticket from King's Cross to York specific for a 21.00 departure, leaving Euston some 5 hours earlier.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,494
Location
Yorkshire
Yes. Had I been in his place and ready to leave at quarter past 4 and not hellbent on getting an HST then I could have been in York a few hours later - Pendolino then Voyager via the West Midlands.
Unless you're very lucky with a connection at Tamworth, you're looking at 4 hours as an absolute minimum, with a more likely journey time of 4.5 hours, and questionable whether they allow it or not. The priority at that time would be to get people on trains who were booked earlier.
I don't understand your point here. Arriving earlier during disruption may or may not help however IMO it is always worth allowing extra time regardless, don't you agree? It's simply common sense.
Well, it's entirely up to the passenger IMO. If I am booked on a 10am train from my outward journey, and have to be there by 12pm, and I am able to travel earlier, then yeah that makes sense. But if I've paid for a day out somewhere, I don't see why I should cut that short. More likely I'll end up arriving home late.
If NR advises you that your journey could be delayed by an hour because of line disruption, then you generally allow an extra hour for your journey expecting to get disrupted.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean I should leave earlier if I'm out somewhere and I am going to be disrupted on my return leg.
WSXFan arrived at the station earlier than anticipated. He left earlier than anticipated. Had it not have been for crap connections, his journey would have terminated earlier than anticipated.
Well, his train (19:25 from St Pancras) was not due to arrive into Doncaster until 22:12. It's alright saying the connections were 'crap', but it was never going to be a massive timesaver.
I don't feel as if I'm being defensive. If anything, I feel as I'm taking a neutral stance. That said, GNER (not MML IMO) were at fault.
I don't think either were at fault. It's clear to me that - at the time he was there - WSXfan got the correct advice. When I was there, no-one had collectively got all the TOCs together to discuss the situation as circumstances changed. Oh and in the interest of fairness, Hull Trains appeared to have no representatives there and were telling their passengers nothing, and then just cancelled their train minutes before an already full GNER was due to depart and let GNER pick up the pieces.

Notwork Fail did an abysmal job of "managing" the station, by err.. not managing it at all.
I don't see it as anything big enough to be calling it a farce or a mess or anything to write a rant at the TOC about. Like I said somewhere earlier, GNER can see the light at the end of thier tunnel. If they loose a few customers here and there occasionally it won't make a world of difference to them as they know they're going anyway. MML couldn't have done any more, thier trains were fully loaded as it was and KX staff were ignorant at sending passengers there.

Maybe I'm just too tolerant of disruption.
I don't know, but I'm not sure how you can say it was not a farce/mess if you didn't witness it.
 

CallySleeper

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2006
Messages
1,662
Location
trentbartonland
Unless you're very lucky with a connection at Tamworth, you're looking at 4 hours as an absolute minimum, with a more likely journey time of 4.5 hours, and questionable whether they allow it or not. The priority at that time would be to get people on trains who were booked earlier.
Yes, or Birmingham New Street even. Obviously, not as direct or as certain as going via Peterborough, but given that MML were also getting pretty full, worth a try at least while the disruption was still ongoing.

Well, it's entirely up to the passenger IMO. If I am booked on a 10am train from my outward journey, and have to be there by 12pm, and I am able to travel earlier, then yeah that makes sense. But if I've paid for a day out somewhere, I don't see why I should cut that short. More likely I'll end up arriving home late.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean I should leave earlier if I'm out somewhere and I am going to be disrupted on my return leg.
Probably at the passenger's discretion. That said, it would probably be sound advice anyway.

Well, his train (19:25 from St Pancras) was not due to arrive into Doncaster until 22:12. It's alright saying the connections were 'crap', but it was never going to be a massive timesaver.
No. Had it been a few hours previous when a connection would be more likely then it might have worked out better.

I don't think either were at fault. It's clear to me that - at the time he was there - WSXfan got the correct advice. When I was there, no-one had collectively got all the TOCs together to discuss the situation as circumstances changed. Oh and in the interest of fairness, Hull Trains appeared to have no representatives there and were telling their passengers nothing, and then just cancelled their train minutes before an already full GNER was due to depart and let GNER pick up the pieces.

Notwork Fail did an abysmal job of "managing" the station, by err.. not managing it at all.
Could it be described better as being a collective failure and a lack of communication and strategy between the TOCs and Network Rail?

I don't know, but I'm not sure how you can say it was not a farce/mess if you didn't witness it.
I feel that calling it a 'farce' is a little harsh considering what happened and the consequences. The problems did not presumably last into the following day, so it was not by any means a long term cock up. A few people messed up, there was a lack of communication or thought-out strategy and a passengers were messed around for an evening but I don't think it was a farce as such. As it was, the original cause for the disruption was accidental and can't be blamed on any of the current operators.
 

Donny Dave

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2005
Messages
5,394
Location
Doncaster
Peter, It was a farce, no doubt about it. I was waiting for a train at Doncaster (a GNER managed station), and the staff there didn't have a clue as to what was happening. Incedently, the Hull Trains service did run (with 2 Pioneers) and was on time at Doncaster, arriving about the same time as the 1925 HST from St. Pancras.
 

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,841
Location
Nowhere Heath
And if someone says I should have got that instead, I'll smack them...

Peter B, you are failing to pick up the one major point I was making. This will be the THIRD time now...

I did NOT arrive into King's Cross at 1611 because I was ready to leave London. Instead, I was getting, quite frankly, ****ed off that I had arranged a pub meet when all I wanted to do was continue bashing and spotting around London! Turns out that it had been a good idea to arrange to meet my friend in King's Cross, as otherwise I might have been going around London totally unaware of any problems, turning up around 2030 (at which point I might have been in a more ready-to-leave state) for my train.

Put simply, if I had not turned up to do the arranged meeting at KGX, I would have not known of any problems and I would have been in Cuckoo Street (that's an old expression I'll not expect 75% of this forum to understand).

No, I didn't arrive any earlier in the end. How was I to know that GNER began operations shortly after I left on the 1925? No-one did, and I was VERY, VERY surprised to get a text message from Sprinter to say that the 1930 to NCL had left, wedged, at 1950!

Put simply, if I had KNOWN things were going to begin again out of KGX soon, I'd have stayed and got moving. I might have been stuck in London all night, missing my booked train from Newcastle and having to fork out extra for another ticket home the next morning from Paddington. So in my eyes I made the right decision and had a thrashtastic trip to Donny.

yorkie and David have confirmed how much staff knew on the day on the ECML. Which was next to nothing. It was a farce because the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing (again, an old expression some people will not understand). GNER knew nothing, Hull Trains weren't helping and FCC were doing what they could to get people up North by running 365s as far as they could to St. Neots for a bus to Peterborough and off from there for passengers with GNER. In my eyes, FCC were the most responsible and decent operator that evening out of KGX. Which says volumes.

For me, the heroes of the day were MML, who accepted GNER passengers onto what are very busy trains in the evening under normal circumstances. More reasons for MML to be Passenger Operator Of The Year. What's more, they didn't have any significant delays on the train I was on. OK, so we left 1.5 down. By Leicester we were early, awaiting time to go. We'd have been earlier still at Derby if it hadn't been for a seriously fast and heavy almost-stop at Loughborough (seriously, we must have had a full brake application, taken off just before the platforms for a full thrash out) and a Birmingham-bound 170 being in the way. Nevertheless, we were virtually on time for the whole journey, apart from at Doncaster when it left late due to passengers not knowing what to do thanks to the farce.

Oh, and another reason for it being a farce is the out-of-hours driver everywhere, all of the out-of-place staff and all the stock being in the wrong places! Effects would have been felt into the next morning. Indeed, one GNER service from Donny to Leeds nearly DID leave on Saturday morning vice Friday night...The 2257 to Leeds had to be kept in platform 8 until a 91, possibly the one yorkie was on, arrived for connecting passengers to Leeds. It left circa 46 down, 2341 I think it left.

yorkie is also right in saying you can't really comment on the events if you were not at King's Cross to witness them. Same if you were not trying to travel along the East Coast that day.

Farce. ECML. Why is it these two terms go hand-in-hand far too often?

EDIT: As for complaining to GNER, I'm planning what to say to them at the moment. Trust me, I'll get my money back...They'll get a very well-worded essay on the subject of Friday's travel with them [sic]. It might be £16.20, but I will certainly have my piece with them!
 

Ascot

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2005
Messages
3,381
Location
Birmingham, UK
And if someone says I should have got that instead, I'll smack them...

Peter B, you are failing to pick up the one major point I was making. This will be the THIRD time now...

I did NOT arrive into King's Cross at 1611 because I was ready to leave London. Instead, I was getting, quite frankly, ****ed off that I had arranged a pub meet when all I wanted to do was continue bashing and spotting around London! Turns out that it had been a good idea to arrange to meet my friend in King's Cross, as otherwise I might have been going around London totally unaware of any problems, turning up around 2030 (at which point I might have been in a more ready-to-leave state) for my train.

Put simply, if I had not turned up to do the arranged meeting at KGX, I would have not known of any problems and I would have been in Cuckoo Street (that's an old expression I'll not expect 75% of this forum to understand).

No, I didn't arrive any earlier in the end. How was I to know that GNER began operations shortly after I left on the 1925? No-one did, and I was VERY, VERY surprised to get a text message from Sprinter to say that the 1930 to NCL had left, wedged, at 1950!

Put simply, if I had KNOWN things were going to begin again out of KGX soon, I'd have stayed and got moving. I might have been stuck in London all night, missing my booked train from Newcastle and having to fork out extra for another ticket home the next morning from Paddington. So in my eyes I made the right decision and had a thrashtastic trip to Donny.

yorkie and David have confirmed how much staff knew on the day on the ECML. Which was next to nothing. It was a farce because the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing (again, an old expression some people will not understand). GNER knew nothing, Hull Trains weren't helping and FCC were doing what they could to get people up North by running 365s as far as they could to St. Neots for a bus to Peterborough and off from there for passengers with GNER. In my eyes, FCC were the most responsible and decent operator that evening out of KGX. Which says volumes.

For me, the heroes of the day were MML, who accepted GNER passengers onto what are very busy trains in the evening under normal circumstances. More reasons for MML to be Passenger Operator Of The Year. What's more, they didn't have any significant delays on the train I was on. OK, so we left 1.5 down. By Leicester we were early, awaiting time to go. We'd have been earlier still at Derby if it hadn't been for a seriously fast and heavy almost-stop at Loughborough (seriously, we must have had a full brake application, taken off just before the platforms for a full thrash out) and a Birmingham-bound 170 being in the way. Nevertheless, we were virtually on time for the whole journey, apart from at Doncaster when it left late due to passengers not knowing what to do thanks to the farce.

Oh, and another reason for it being a farce is the out-of-hours driver everywhere, all of the out-of-place staff and all the stock being in the wrong places! Effects would have been felt into the next morning. Indeed, one GNER service from Donny to Leeds nearly DID leave on Saturday morning vice Friday night...The 2257 to Leeds had to be kept in platform 8 until a 91, possibly the one yorkie was on, arrived for connecting passengers to Leeds. It left circa 46 down, 2341 I think it left.

yorkie is also right in saying you can't really comment on the events if you were not at King's Cross to witness them. Same if you were not trying to travel along the East Coast that day.

Farce. ECML. Why is it these two terms go hand-in-hand far too often?

EDIT: As for complaining to GNER, I'm planning what to say to them at the moment. Trust me, I'll get my money back...They'll get a very well-worded essay on the subject of Friday's travel with them [sic]. It might be £16.20, but I will certainly have my piece with them!

Wow War and Peace re-written all over again. :blah5:

At the end of the day, you got home if you keep going back you prob find out it's some rail company you never heard of's fault because they added sugar to the workers tea when he cannot take it etc.. or something stupid.

Insert 5 more paragraphs here

ALso when you said Right hand about the left hand, ya just rippin my words here from my post so ya can fix up with that. As i say, welcome to the real world, it's like you've never been in a situation like this before... actually witness what it's like to be staff then before ya moan, they are not computers and i know how hard it is when something like this happens. Stupid Question time kicks in.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,494
Location
Yorkshire
Peter, It was a farce, no doubt about it. I was waiting for a train at Doncaster (a GNER managed station), and the staff there didn't have a clue as to what was happening. Incedently, the Hull Trains service did run (with 2 Pioneers) and was on time at Doncaster, arriving about the same time as the 1925 HST from St. Pancras.
Ah right - they turned it somewhere like PBO then!! that explains it!!!
 

CallySleeper

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2006
Messages
1,662
Location
trentbartonland
Oh, and another reason for it being a farce is the out-of-hours driver everywhere

Which was accidental possibly?

Believe it or not gentlemen, as I already hinted in this or another thread, I was also caught up in the disruption further up the line on that day and, yes, was delayed. I would like to take this oppertunity to give full credit to Virgin who were, to be quite frank, very good at assisting passengers who were being disrupted - TMs and other staff knew what was going on, which GNER services were being disrupted and were able to accomodate the disrupted passengers.

A number of people, myself, Yorkie, yourself etc were disrupted and/or messed around, but with all respect WSXFan, I fail to understand why you're still making such a song and a dance about it - 4 or 5 days have passed now and most seemed to have cooled down somewhat from it. Aye, you got disrupted like everyone else... but as it turned out, at the end of the day you still got what you wanted - a ride on an HST - but you still seem hellbent on getting your £16.20 back and making sure they know how you feel about the whole "farce"? I've never seen such enthusiasm!

Your "well-worded essay" could well earn you a refund, however, is, as I already suggested, unlikely to change how things are currently, nor how things are done in the future. Also, as I have already said, there was no long term effects. People who have generally high levels of stress tend to live less healtier lives - also, people who rant a lot don't generally turn out to be very nice either! :)
 

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,841
Location
Nowhere Heath
I can be as nice as pie...Just at this time I'm not feeling it!

You have kept insisting that I was ready to leave London by quarter-past 4, which was far from the case as I've said four times now. Yes if I had left then I'd have got to NCL just fine, albeit still not at a good time.

Speaking of Newcastle, passengers were being advised around 1815 to go to Euston for a Virgin service to Manchester and connections from there...Those 390s would have been jammed solid...

I will write to GNER requesting my money back. Whether I get it or not is another thing entirely, but I'll try!

I have cooled off considerably since Friday, but it still drives me nuts that failures like this happen so often.
 

Craig

Established Member
Joined
15 Jun 2005
Messages
3,958
Location
Newcastle
I will write to GNER requesting my money back. Whether I get it or not is another thing entirely, but I'll try!
I doubt you'll get a full refund as the train you were booked on ran. Admittedly it departed late, but according to Yorkie it was early into Newcastle - your original destination. You might get a few vouchers or something...
 

CallySleeper

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2006
Messages
1,662
Location
trentbartonland
WSXFan, I didn't insist in my previous post that you were prepared to leave at that time, why repeat yourself again? I think I've got the message by now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top