ECML Damaged OHL

[YorkshireBear]

I dont know what else has been said in the thread but I have been up to Skipton and back by train today.

I was on an early train out of Crowborough today. Got to London Bridge on time, down to the tube where in the tunnel from the rail station to the underground I saw a screen displaying a warning of engineering works near Gleneagles which might cause delayed journeys. So I pondered how many people who saw it would be affected, probably none.

Anyway continued to Kings Cross where I found very few people and a lot of cancelled trains, first I knew of the problems. There were a few people hanging round the information desk where a coupl,e of staff were helping customers, and I was told to got via St Pancras and And Sheffield, which is what I did. Got a seat on the Sheffield train, then X Country to Leeds, got a seat too, then leeds to Skipton, same route return home, seats all the way home too.

Delayed by an hour each way but other than that no real problem.

Getting a seat on XC between Sheffield and Leeds is difficult at the bst of times!

 

[tsr]

I am shocked at the reports on here of members not knowing of the disruption.

Information has been on National Rail Enquiries since 2227 last night, and it only takes a few seconds to skim read the "Current Disruptions" section, which provides said details.

One would think that the sort of people who post on here would be able to take a little time over their morning cup of coffee (or whatever) to find out if their journey will be delayed, particularly if it is likely to be relatively long and/or complex.

In addition, almost as soon as I woke up today, I could see BBC News was doing a fine job of indicating the existence of disruption - albeit inaccurately. JourneyCheck and TOC websites, plus Twitter feeds, were fine.

In this day and age, there is no excuse for not checking before travelling. In the unlikely situation of a total lack of access to any internet-based sources before leaving home, NRE's phone helpline is available.

 

[Oswyntail]

Are you, or have you ever been, a railwayman who has worked on the ground amidst an incident like this?

No I am not. Why does this totally irrelevant argument have to appear on so many threads? Major incident planning , which I have done in other spheres, is chiefly a question of taking decisions, such as who is in overall charge, what are the priorities in generic situations. There is nothing unique to railways in that.

It is not that simple as to say "all that is needed.......", every major incident is unique and will have consequences you cannot plan for in advance, to say otherwise is unwise, and if you read my post above again you will see I used the word "near" as a qualification before "impossible".

The consequences are, of course, unpredictable. But so long as everyone potentially involved knows who has authority to give what commands, who is in charge, and what the various roles are, it can all be planned and implemented smoothly and efficiently.

In most cases of severe disruption, the staff on the ground do a damn fine job under very difficult and fluid circumstances

And no one has disputed that,

not helped by having to work for different masters, whom all have different influences on what they expect and what they sanction to be done.

Which is exactly my point. If a plan is made and implemented, there is only one chain of authority and the clarity that could so easily be lost is maintained.

 

[Zoidberg]

No I am not. Why does this totally irrelevant argument have to appear on so many threads? Major incident planning , which I have done in other spheres, is chiefly a question of taking decisions, such as who is in overall charge, what are the priorities in generic situations. There is nothing unique to railways in that.
The consequences are, of course, unpredictable. But so long as everyone potentially involved knows who has authority to give what commands, who is in charge, and what the various roles are, it can all be planned and implemented smoothly and efficiently.

And no one has disputed that,
Which is exactly my point. If a plan is made and implemented, there is only one chain of authority and the clarity that could so easily be lost is maintained.

Perhaps it'd be best to plan to continue business in the face of adversity. "Business Continuity Planning", they could call it. They could even have a British Standard ... oh, wait a minute ...

 

[Chrisgr31]

I am shocked at the reports on here of members not knowing of the disruption.

Information has been on National Rail Enquiries since 2227 last night, and it only takes a few seconds to skim read the "Current Disruptions" section, which provides said details.

One would think that the sort of people who post on here would be able to take a little time over their morning cup of coffee (or whatever) to find out if their journey will be delayed, particularly if it is likely to be relatively long and/or complex.

In addition, almost as soon as I woke up today, I could see BBC News was doing a fine job of indicating the existence of disruption - albeit inaccurately. JourneyCheck and TOC websites, plus Twitter feeds, were fine.

In this day and age, there is no excuse for not checking before travelling. In the unlikely situation of a total lack of access to any internet-based sources before leaving home, NRE's phone helpline is available.

Guess it depends what time you woke up! I was leaving on the 5.29 train, just got up, dressed and went, didnt make coffee, didnt turn telly or computer on, did check that no Southern alerts had been received on my train into London. I get enoug tweets without adding all possible options for rail routes I might use. Personally I am slightly surprised there was no announcement on the Southern train or at London Bridge. Mind you had their been I might have had to go to the office and got no delay repay!

 

[tsr]

Guess it depends what time you woke up! I was leaving on the 5.29 train, just got up, dressed and went, didnt make coffee, didnt turn telly or computer on, did check that no Southern alerts had been received on my train into London. I get enoug tweets without adding all possible options for rail routes I might use. Personally I am slightly surprised there was no announcement on the Southern train or at London Bridge. Mind you had their been I might have had to go to the office and got no delay repay!

I do take your point, but I have woken up for earlier public transport services and yet have still been able to quickly have a look at a mobile device in order to check the appropriate website... I am just surprised that a brief check did not make sense before a relatively long journey!

 

[harz99]

I am certainly not going to get the mini violin out for the very people who are responsible for house price inflation across the south east. An entire generation have been priced out of ever owning their own home by bleating commuters who want the best of both worlds.

What these poor Peterborough commuters responsible on their own for HPI across the South East, and pricing an entire generation out of ever owning their own home?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No I am not. Why does this totally irrelevant argument have to appear on so many threads? Major incident planning , which I have done in other spheres, is chiefly a question of taking decisions, such as who is in overall charge, what are the priorities in generic situations. There is nothing unique to railways in that.
The consequences are, of course, unpredictable. But so long as everyone potentially involved knows who has authority to give what commands, who is in charge, and what the various roles are, it can all be planned and implemented smoothly and efficiently.

And no one has disputed that,
Which is exactly my point. If a plan is made and implemented, there is only one chain of authority and the clarity that could so easily be lost is maintained.

I, and most who have worked, or do work, on "the railway", would beg to differ on that point.

I can see that it will be pointless carrying on this discussion as from your outsiders position, you obviously know best, and as we would be going off topic anyway I'm done.

 

[Tom B]

Neither FCC nor EC have suitable diesel locos and why bother going to the trouble of hiring some in, not commercially viable, easier to just cancel everything. Plus I'd imagine there is then all sorts of faff about crews signing the route etc etc blah blah.

Welcome to the modern railway.

Quite. Doubtless by the time that the beancounters had set up a contract to hire a locomotive, the problem would have been fixed!

But - seriously - why on earth in the 21st century is it beyond the wit of the railways to cooperate to provide a service? Peterborough Yard often has plenty of locomotives stabled. With a little will others could be brought in from elsewhere. Drivers from the freight companies, possibly working overtime as a result of operational exigencies, conducted (if required) by the usual driver (I will assume that an intercity driver would not be trained on any locomotive that they don't usually drive).

I'd suggest that it isn't impossible, but that nobody really cares. It may even be that the cost of taxis on account between Peterborough and London, and a few D-R refunds, is cheaper than doing the more convenient thing!

 

[HSTEd]

Quite. Doubtless by the time that the beancounters had set up a contract to hire a locomotive, the problem would have been fixed!

But - seriously - why on earth in the 21st century is it beyond the wit of the railways to cooperate to provide a service? Peterborough Yard often has plenty of locomotives stabled. With a little will others could be brought in from elsewhere. Drivers from the freight companies, possibly working overtime as a result of operational exigencies, conducted (if required) by the usual driver (I will assume that an intercity driver would not be trained on any locomotive that they don't usually drive).

I'd suggest that it isn't impossible, but that nobody really cares. It may even be that the cost of taxis on account between Peterborough and London, and a few D-R refunds, is cheaper than doing the more convenient thing!

Because that sort of thing is exactly what the privatised railway is designed to avoid.

The market commands the most efficient thing, which in this case is to cancel everything and pay Delay Repay charges, taxi fares and bus costs.

Hail the free market!

 

[Chris M]

No I am not. Why does this totally irrelevant argument have to appear on so many threads? Major incident planning , which I have done in other spheres, is chiefly a question of taking decisions, such as who is in overall charge, what are the priorities in generic situations. There is nothing unique to railways in that.
The consequences are, of course, unpredictable. But so long as everyone potentially involved knows who has authority to give what commands, who is in charge, and what the various roles are, it can all be planned and implemented smoothly and efficiently.

And no one has disputed that,
Which is exactly my point. If a plan is made and implemented, there is only one chain of authority and the clarity that could so easily be lost is maintained.

I, and most who have worked, or do work, on "the railway", would beg to differ on that point.

I can see that it will be pointless carrying on this discussion as from your outsiders position, you obviously know best, and as we would be going off topic anyway I'm done.

Why is the railway different?
You are accusing someone of speaking from a position of "I know best" while doing exactly the same thing.

Oswyntail has explained the reasoning behind his statements and the logic he has followed to reach them. If this has lead to the wrong conclusions then the mature course of action is to explain where he has gone wrong, why it is wrong, what is correct and why it is correct. Instead you've acted in a very obnoxious manner and said "You're wrong and there is no possible way you could understand it so don't even both to try! But obviously you will never accept this so I'm talking my ball and going home!"

The problem as articulated was that there are too many conflicting chains of command. The offered solution to this was to define a single chain of command in advance and then implement this when needed.
This is what works for the emergency services and other bodies at major incidents (usually in the form of gold, silver and bronze commands). Why would it not work for the railways? Be as specific as you can. Don't just reply that as I don't work for the railway I wouldn't understand - that is not an answer and just reinforces the perception of being out of touch.

 

[Skimble19]

Reports so far suggesting lines should be open from 06:00/07:00.

They also had confused passengers wondering where on earth Biggleswade was. Helpfully, BBC provided a map... Where it was located near Royston. They helpfully explained it was on the Cambridge branch.

As anyone from Biggleswade knows, it's more Royston Vasey than Royston...

I saw that report, top reporting from the Beeb as ever..! :roll:

As for Royston Vasey.... Fair enough.

 

[Clip]

Quite. Doubtless by the time that the beancounters had set up a contract to hire a locomotive, the problem would have been fixed!

But - seriously - why on earth in the 21st century is it beyond the wit of the railways to cooperate to provide a service? Peterborough Yard often has plenty of locomotives stabled. With a little will others could be brought in from elsewhere. Drivers from the freight companies, possibly working overtime as a result of operational exigencies, conducted (if required) by the usual driver (I will assume that an intercity driver would not be trained on any locomotive that they don't usually drive).

I'd suggest that it isn't impossible, but that nobody really cares. It may even be that the cost of taxis on account between Peterborough and London, and a few D-R refunds, is cheaper than doing the more convenient thing!

But how many of the locos in Peterborough yard can hook up to any FCC or EC stock easily? And just because the locos are there what about drivers to drive them - not every driver is passed to drive every class of loco.
Also as was mentioned in a previous post for a while nothing could pass through the affected area so there were diversions and are have drivers that are available got the route knowledge? If not then they would need a pilot - what if there are not any of them about at the time?

Just because a yard may have locos it doesnt mean they have the drivers nor the ones with route knowledge to drive them via a diversion. And its not just privitisation that has brought this around as Im pretty sure(yes im guessing) that not every driver during BR days was signed for every class of loco nor every route possible for diversions - it would be impossible to keep someones route knowledge up like that whilst getting them to keep on with their day to day jobs of driving their normal trains and routes.


But its ok, do the normal thing and blame it all on privitisation, because its easier isnt it.

 

[Class377/5]

Reports so far suggesting lines should be open from 06:00/07:00.

Only the slow lines tho.

 

[A-driver]

Lets end this silly argument of loco hauling through the section first of all. My post earlier stating the FACTS that this dosnt happen has been ignored so I will sum up again to end the silly speculation.

Even if they sourced locos from New England etc it wouldn't be much help or allow more services to run than using hsts and 180s. The number of lines are still restricted and as they only had the slows open there are far far less paths with lower speeds and reduced signalling. Plus the locos need double manning (route and traction knowledge) and then you have to try linking them up which will take a while (its really completely different to attaching a couple of MUs in service.)

66s and similar locos arnt designed to drag EMUs or MK4 sets and would require emergency couplers or translator coaches, a long winded attachment procedure and system tests and the same again to detach at the other end and would very likely lead to an overall reduction in the number if trains able to run between barford and connington.

Sorry to spoil the speculation and railway bashing with facts! Even under BR it wouldn't be done like that,

As for all this contingency planning etc-as has been said by others-every situation is different. They can't plan for everything.

The reason people were stranded at kings x was because they were assessing the situation. This takes time, especially at half 10 at night. There are less staff and management avaliable, those on call would need to physically get into work.

They can't just magic up buses and taxis-again, late at night it takes longer to get any at all. The immediate concern would be rescuing those stranded in trains around st Neots. Those at kings cross are safe and very low priority I'm afraid. So you have to sleep on a warm train at kings x? Not the end if the world really!

They would need to get staff in site to assess the damage-not easy at night without shipping in lights etc-during the day you could stand in the hill at barford and see how much wire is down. During the night you have to walk the entire length and that either side carefully looking for the damage.

It's easy for the media and armchair/google experts to criticise and say 'I know best' but try and think things through first and get some facts right!

 

[HSTEd]

Ironically this sort of thing will be far easier to do once the IEP arrives....

Since even the electric sets could be run slowly through the obstructed area on diesel and then put the pan back up, even though for service reasons it is likely that only Bi-mode sets would be run through. (the get-me-home engine on the electrics will likely top out at 30mph or even slower).

 

[Boothby97]

But how many of the locos in Peterborough yard can hook up to any FCC or EC stock easily? And just because the locos are there what about drivers to drive them - not every driver is passed to drive every class of loco.
Also as was mentioned in a previous post for a while nothing could pass through the affected area so there were diversions and are have drivers that are available got the route knowledge? If not then they would need a pilot - what if there are not any of them about at the time?

Just because a yard may have locos it doesnt mean they have the drivers nor the ones with route knowledge to drive them via a diversion. And its not just privitisation that has brought this around as Im pretty sure(yes im guessing) that not every driver during BR days was signed for every class of loco nor every route possible for diversions - it would be impossible to keep someones route knowledge up like that whilst getting them to keep on with their day to day jobs of driving their normal trains and routes.


But its ok, do the normal thing and blame it all on privitisation, because its easier isnt it.

I was shocked reading that NO LOCOS CAN COUPLE TO MK4 SETS!
Yes, the ECML has thunderbird locos for HST and Mk4 sets, based at Edinburgh, Newcastle, Doncaster, and London Kings Cross. These are Class 67s hired from DBS.
As for the locos in Peterbrough yard, these will be GBRf and DBS 66s which need auto couplers and the correct staff but a Freightliner 66 did haul of Mk4 rake last month.
But FCC, don't have any thunderbird locos!
Thanks, Sam

 

[jopsuk]

The other reason it would be impractical for 66s to haul stranded mark 4 sets is that whilst a 67 can provide power to the coaches, a 66 can't...

 

[Boothby97]

The other reason it would be impractical for 66s to haul stranded mark 4 sets is that whilst a 67 can provide power to the coaches, a 66 can't...

.....and so the class 91 would have to raise its pantograph to draw power, but it can't because the wires are down....
Thanks, Sam

 

[stut]

What actually ended up happening - an HST shuttle doing KGX-SVG-HUN-PBO, with electrics handling onward services, and the normal 365s doing KGX-BIW, seemed eminently sensible. Were locomotives actually needed?

 

[Deerfold]

I do take your point, but I have woken up for earlier public transport services and yet have still been able to quickly have a look at a mobile device in order to check the appropriate website... I am just surprised that a brief check did not make sense before a relatively long journey!

But the questons are: when do you check?, how often should you check?

Given the website was apparently already saying on Tuesday evening that they weren't expecting a normal service to happen until Thursday, a text or e-mail to people who've asked to be informed of disruption before Wednesday evening isn't too much to ask. I often do check my journey before travelling, but not always - and given the level of disruption it might have been useful to know several hours before travel so I could try and rearrange my plans to not travel (which is what I did when I found out (from friends) there were problems on Wednesday morning - but at that point I'd not checked out my proposed journey on Wednesday evening)

 

[GNER 91128]

After yet another disastrous 48 hours for the ECML and another episode that could have been avoided, isn't it about time the OLHE is all replaced and done to proper standard?

 

[HSTEd]

After yet another disastrous 48 hours for the ECML and another episode that could have been avoided, isn't it about time the OLHE is all replaced and done to proper standard?

So are you willing to put up with the months or years of hassle while they do it?

And I am not convinced it would make any significant amount of difference, since even the vaunted WCML electrification does come down as well.

And who pays for this absurd gold plating of the infrastructure?

 

[GNER 91128]

So are you willing to put up with the months or years of hassle while they do it?

And I am not convinced it would make any significant amount of difference, since even the vaunted WCML electrification does come down as well.

And who pays for this absurd gold plating of the infrastructure?

Weekend closures and do it bit by bit I guess.

Something needs to be done to stop all this repeatedly happening.

 

[Boothby97]

Shouldn't we also look at the Cl.91s, seen as they normally are the culprits for bringing the wires down, roll on the Bombardier Traxx .....
Thanks, Sam

 

[HSTEd]

Weekend closures and do it bit by bit I guess.

Something needs to be done to stop all this repeatedly happening.

It doesn't really happen that much.

And once you subtract the rate of incidents found on other electrified lines with "higher quality" equipment the number of excess incidents diminishes to quite a small value.

And weekend closures are incredibly disruptive, as anyone who had to use the 5 day railway that was provided during the WCRM will attest.

It would also cost far more than simply closing the line for a few weeks at a time.

 

[EM2]

This debate of not knowing beforehand is interesting. How did we all cope before the internet and social media? Twitter has only really blossomed in the last five years or so, the first iPhone, and the development of apps, was not much earlier. Yet we all coped.

 

[Deerfold]

This debate of not knowing beforehand is interesting. How did we all cope before the internet and social media? Twitter has only really blossomed in the last five years or so, the first iPhone, and the development of apps, was not much earlier. Yet we all coped.

That doesn't mean you should ignore developments that enable you to communicate with passengers and potential passengers.

I used to be able to call a phone line which would tell me of any incidents on my local trains in West Yorkshire (a recorded message). So far as I can tell this no longer exists.

 

[jon0844]

This debate of not knowing beforehand is interesting. How did we all cope before the internet and social media? Twitter has only really blossomed in the last five years or so, the first iPhone, and the development of apps, was not much earlier. Yet we all coped.

I guess the way to do it in the old days was to phone a helpline, which was presumably manned by people nearby - not thousands of miles away in another time zone.

I think it's fair to say that before people got mobile phones, then mobiles with data connections and the Internet - people probably used to take things easier, and arrived at stations earlier and took earlier trains whenever they had a few connections.

Now it's rush rush, and people expect to have everything working perfectly with no contingency plans for any delays, or a 'plan b' in case things go tits up.

Certainly some TOCs are bad at giving information when you've actually taken the time to sign up for alerts - and that should be addressed.

In the case of FCC, I get texts still (must one day turn them off!) but many are irrelevant, don't mention a major incident (like the lines being down) and are often received on my phone very late. In fact, more than 50% of the ones about 'train delayed 10 minutes - a signalling problem' or '0818 now on time', 'problem no longer affecting the area' can be 30 minutes afterwards.. so totally useless.

In the defence of FCC, I do suspect I might be signed up to an older alert service as I can't seem to find access to it online anymore - and they've now changed a lot of their information services. I might therefore be getting a legacy feed; but why didn't FCC notify me to stop the current text alerts and move - or do it for me?

 

[tsr]

I normally try to check before travel in such a way that I leave enough time to plan and take any alternative route. For example, if one of my local lines gets blocked, my alternative route might add up to 45mins, so I'll try to factor that in when I decide when to check. If that is not possible (early-morning starts, for example), I'll just turn on my phone and have a look as soon as I can.

If the phone signal/broadband/whatever is unavailable, then that is of course a different situation and I do try to leave enough time. That said, most of my "first journeys of the day" start in urban or suburban areas, so that's unlikely for me.

 

[jon0844]

People need to consider where they're going and if being late is a problem.

Every day when I went to work, a delay wasn't a massive deal; I'd just arrive at work late. Not a problem.

But sometimes I had an early meeting or I was on my way to an event, so being late wasn't possible - so I'd have to consider leaving earlier. If I didn't, I really only had myself to blame.

And if you're about to go off on your two-week holiday on a cheap economy, no change possible, next flight not for 24 hours etc - you wouldn't take any chances. Of course, many people would!