ECML: Class 180-v-Class 91

[tom73]

Taking my very first trip on Grand Central in May, a non-stop trip from London King's Cross to York. The morning journey is due to take 119 minutes.
However, a similar LNER service but with a stop at Peterborough at a similar time of day takes only 111 minutes for the journey.
Are the Class 180's really a little slower than the LNER electrics?
Not complaining as the GC fare for my journey is just 16% of the LNER fare

 

[_toommm_]

Could it be that Grand Central got 'lesser' paths up the East Coast, meaning that they're more at the mercy of other trains?

 

[GW43125]

There's a lot of "slack" in the GC timetables to fit them around other services. From memory, when I went to York last year (HST days), we slowed right down through Peterborough (think we might have stopped for a couple of minutes), and we spent at least five minutes sitting at Doncaster (waiting for a conflicting VTEC, as was, from Leeds if memory serves).

 

[Esker-pades]

The typical XX:00 Kings Cross to Edinburgh (first stop York) has 6.5 minutes of pathing time. The ones that stop at Peterborough don't have any pathing time as far as York.

Now, Grand Central:
08:06 has 14.5 minutes of pathing time (119 minutes).
11:27 has 9.5 minutes (116 minutes).
12:57 has 4.5 minutes (110 minutes).
16:48 has 7.5 minutes (112 minutes).
19:27 has 9.5 minutes (110 minutes).

As a note, the pathing time (as I understand) are the additional minutes that are added at a location so that it has a path. There are also engineering and performance minutes.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

As a note, the pathing time (as I understand) are the additional minutes that are added at a location so that it has a path. There are also engineering and performance minutes.

And adjustment minutes, though you can't see them

 

[Esker-pades]

And adjustment minutes, though you can't see them

What do the adjustment minutes do?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

What do the adjustment minutes do?

Adjust the sectional running times to account for the likes of braking for or accelerating from low speed pointwork or any other operational flexes; basically anything not covered in the other three allowances. Where they are necessary I believe they are stipulated in the Rules of the Plan.

 

[Railperf]

The 8:06 is hot on the heels of the 8:03 to Leeds - which stops at Peterborough and Doncaster. So the additional minutes are inserted into the timetable to regulate the 8:06 and keep it behind the 8:03 at all times until it diverges to leeds beyond Doncaster. There may be other trains crossing the line at junctions en route, and so adding these minutes in prevents the 8:06 arriving too early and causing conflicts with other services. Maybe - for commercial and political reasons - the open access service is 'slowed down' deliberately to protect LNER as THE high speed operator between Kings Cross and York.

 

[Railperf]

There's a lot of "slack" in the GC timetables to fit them around other services. From memory, when I went to York last year (HST days), we slowed right down through Peterborough (think we might have stopped for a couple of minutes), and we spent at least five minutes sitting at Doncaster (waiting for a conflicting VTEC, as was, from Leeds if memory serves).

The idea is that the driver should be aiming to pass each station or junction close to the designated time in the working timetable. That can mean driving at 90 or 100mph rather than the full 125mph - to dissipate time. This would prevent the train running too ahead of time and then having to sit outside stations or at major junctions. Of course - some drivers don't bother worrying about that too much and just drive to the signals because there is no guarantee that other trains in front will be on time or within their paths.

 

[Railperf]

Taking my very first trip on Grand Central in May, a non-stop trip from London King's Cross to York. The morning journey is due to take 119 minutes.
However, a similar LNER service but with a stop at Peterborough at a similar time of day takes only 111 minutes for the journey.
Are the Class 180's really a little slower than the LNER electrics?
Not complaining as the GC fare for my journey is just 16% of the LNER fare

The 180's are quicker (when all engines are running) than a Class 91 - from a performance point of view. But maybe a bit less reliable lol!!

 

[tom73]

Thank you Railperf. You have been of immense help, but what puzzles me is why the current 08:03 Leeds service wasn't made an 08:06 service with the faster GC service going out first at 08:03. Alternatively why couldn't the 08:03 LNER service, already beginning to slow down at Huntingdon for its Peterborough stop run from Huntingdon to Peterborough on the Down Slow so that GC service can overtake on the Down Fast.

 

[Railperf]

Thank you Railperf. You have been of immense help, but what puzzles me is why the current 08:03 Leeds service wasn't made an 08:06 service with the faster GC service going out first at 08:03. Alternatively why couldn't the 08:03 LNER service, already beginning to slow down at Huntingdon for its Peterborough stop run from Huntingdon to Peterborough on the Down Slow so that GC service can overtake on the Down Fast.

You will have to ask Grand Central or Network Rail i'm afraid. Absolutely the 8.06 could potentially have overtaken the 8.03 at its Peterboro stop. So either there is an operational issue ahead with other conflicting train paths. Or this train has been delibwrately slowed down sonas not to be faster than LNER services. Remember these.open access services are designed to offer services to London from towns that LNER wouldn't necessarily serve or be interested in serving. But as they stop at York..i guess LNER and the DfT don't want the open access operators competeing at the same or faster speeds than LNER!!

 

[whhistle]

But as they stop at York..i guess LNER and the DfT don't want the open access operators competeing at the same or faster speeds than LNER!!

Because of course, rail franchising / open access isn't about competition! :P

 

[hwl]

The 180's are quicker (when all engines are running) than a Class 91 - from a performance point of view. But maybe a bit less reliable lol!!

With a clear run (nothing in front till the final approach to York) the 0700 from KGX used to make York in 101 or 102 minutes with just a PBO stop. (I used to be a regular). It now appear to regularly get held up around Stevenage instead...

Normally the xx00, xx03 and xx06 paths (and xx30 xx33) are all EC ones the only exception is 0806 because EC doesn't have enough rolling stock to use that path. OA paths are normally xx27 or xx48

The xx00 (xx30) is a fast via York and beyond, the xx03 (& 33) Leeds and the xx06 the EC stopper to York. Hence the GC 0806 being an oddity needs to lose some time to fit in.

 

[Railperf]

The xx00 (xx30) is a fast via York and beyond, the xx03 (& 33) Leeds and the xx06 the EC stopper to York. Hence the GC 0806 being an oddity needs to lose some time to fit in.

You could path the 8.06 through Peterborough at approx 08.50/51 while the 8.03 is at its Peterboro stop (8:49-8:51) . Or berth the 8.03 an extra minute at Peterboro to allow the 8:06 through. Then it appears to be running in clean air at least to Doncaster. I haven't checked the timings beyond..

 

[hwl]

You could path the 8.06 through Peterborough at approx 08.50/51 while the 8.03 is at its Peterboro stop (8:49-8:51) . Or berth the 8.03 an extra minute at Peterboro to allow the 8:06 through. Then it appears to be running in clean air at least to Doncaster. I haven't checked the timings beyond..

But why do something different to the regular pattern for just 1 path a day?
The 0806 path may not be an OA one in a year or 2 post IET introduction on EC though.
The 0803 will swap to an IET at some point this year which will alter timings.
The OA operators also contribute significantly less.

 

[Journeyman]

What do the adjustment minutes do?

Adjust.

*ducks*

 

[Esker-pades]

Adjust.

*ducks*

Goose.

I thought there were 3 types of additional minutes (Performance, Pathing, Engineering), but there is a 4th one (Adjustment) which I did not know about. I can just about explain the differences between the first 3 types, but this fourth type is a mystery to me.

 

[DarloRich]

Not that I keep records but my fastest journey non stop between Kings Cross and York was by GC on an HST. it was the early departure from Kings Cross. I am sure the driver was on a promise! it was warp factor 7 from about Finsbury Park to Dringhouses, Brakes on hard. Coast to a stop. Time for tea and buns before meeting. Bonzer.

 

[Railperf]

Not that I keep records but my fastest journey non stop between Kings Cross and York was by GC on an HST. it was the early departure from Kings Cross. I am sure the driver was on a promise! it was warp factor 7 from about Finsbury Park to Dringhouses, Brakes on hard. Coast to a stop. Time for tea and buns before meeting. Bonzer.

Fastest Kings Cross to York run in the Railway Performance Society archives is 1 hr 37 mins powered by a Class 91!! The short GC sets were quite sprightly - so it is very believable that given a clear run, one of those HST sets could produce a fast run!