EC diversions via the Askern Line

[jnjkerbin]

It seems that on the 15th of December, East Coast trains between Doncaster and York are being diverted via the Askern line which isn't electrified. A normal Saturday timetable on East Coast requires 12 HSTs and 1 spare at Neville Hill. In total, this requires 26 power cars. East Coast only owns 32 power cars-not enough to replace all the 91s which do many of the services between Doncaster and York.

Will they be drafting in other HST sets/ attaching diesel locos (67s perhaps) or what?

Thanks

Joe

 

[Darandio]

Usually 67's are brought in to drag 91/Mk4 sets in addition to using the HST fleet.

It's actually just been happening on the Tyne Valley.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Usually 67's are brought in to drag 91/Mk4 sets in addition to using the HST fleet.

Thanks
Would they be loco hauled all the way from London to wherever they're going or just between Doncaster and York.

Thanks
Joe

 

[Whistler40145]

The 67s would only drag Doncaster to York.

 

[43167]

It seems that on the 15th of December, East Coast trains between Doncaster and York are being diverted via the Askern line which isn't electrified. A normal Saturday timetable on East Coast requires 12 HSTs and 1 spare at Neville Hill. In total, this requires 26 power cars. East Coast only owns 32 power cars-not enough to replace all the 91s which do many of the services between Doncaster and York.

Will they be drafting in other HST sets/ attaching diesel locos (67s perhaps) or what?

Thanks

Joe

East Coast dont own any powercars or 91's, they are leased from Angel trains and Porterbrook.

 

[jnjkerbin]

East Coast dont own any powercars or 91's, they are leased from Angel trains and Porterbrook.

Good point. I tend to use the words own and operate interchangeably which I suppose is a bit of a bad habit.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks
Would they be loco hauled all the way from London to wherever they're going or just between Doncaster and York.

If 67s are used, they will be Class 91 hauled except between Doncaster & York where they will be Class 67 hauled, I am sure. But they will be loco hauled all the way!

 

[43167]

Sorry. Hope it didnt appear to big-headed.

Back to the topic. Had a look at the EC journey planner and it appears 1tph in each direction.

 

[jnjkerbin]

If 67s are used, they will be Class 91 hauled except between Doncaster & York where they will be Class 67 hauled, I am sure. But they will be loco hauled all the way!

That is also a very good point. I think I'm probably a bit tired

None of the timings at Doncaster seem to be long enough to attach another loco though.

Joe

 

[yorkie]

There is plenty of time. It takes about 38 minutes (instead of 19 minutes) on a clear run. You will see some Voyagers are timed for around 43 minutes, which is about the right for a realistic timing with plenty of slack. Yet EC are given around 50 minutes, so clearly some of that time is actually allowances for attaching/detaching locos. In fact, many of the trains are given 1 hour from the time they arrive at Doncaster to the time they depart York (and vice-versa).

When the 2200 King's Cross - Newcastle goes that way, some passengers seem to think that Knottingley is York! That mistake is only forgiveable in pitch black conditions and shouldn't be made in daylight

 

[Eagle]

When the 2200 King's Cross - Newcastle goes that way, some passengers seem to think that Knottingley is York!

Surely the fact that the train hasn't stopped is clue enough? :P

 

[jnjkerbin]

There is plenty of time. It takes about 38 minutes (instead of 19 minutes) on a clear run. You will see some Voyagers are timed for around 43 minutes, which is about the right for a realistic timing with plenty of slack. Yet EC are given around 50 minutes, so clearly some of that time is actually allowances for attaching/detaching locos. In fact, many of the trains are given 1 hour from the time they arrive at Doncaster to the time they depart York (and vice-versa).

Right! I didn't know how long the diversion actually took so I thought that length of time was normal.

Thanks.

 

[43167]

I did this diversion in January when 1st 2 trains on a sunday went that way, it doesnt add that much more tbh. The only really slow bit of the route is when it gets to Knottingley.

 

[jnjkerbin]

I booked tickets on a diverted service before noticing it was diverted. After all, EC doesn't even mention extended journey times. I'm in no rush to get to York so the bonuses are that I get to do a new line with few normal passenger trains, a short freight only chord and the chance to see some 67 drags.

Should be a good day out!

Joe

 

[43167]

Ok. Just had a look on EC journey planner and I would say looking at the dwell times at York & Doncaster, they are all HST. I did wonder if the 1st service from Newcastle would be dragged, as its got 32mins at York, but then looked at the Doncaster time and the length of its got there, I dont think it will be.

Intrestingly, the 1st service north out of Kings Cross is shown the normal journey time between Doncaster & York.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Ok. Just had a look on EC journey planner and I would say looking at the dwell times at York & Doncaster, they are all HST.

I wouldn't think EC has enough HSTs to replace the 91+mk4s. See yorkie's post.

Joe

 

[43167]

I wouldn't think EC has enough HSTs to replace the 91+mk4s. See yorkie's post.

Joe

Your right. There will a drag. 14 HST sets for 15 trains wont work.

Looking at the Anglo-Scots out of Kings Cross, think it could be the 0615 as the rest through the day depart at xx30.

Also its a full weekend job.

 

[Eagle]

When the 2200 King's Cross - Newcastle goes that way...

OOI, it'll do that tomorrow (in case anyone can't wait till December :P)

 

[jnjkerbin]

14 HST sets for 15 trains wont work.

Just out of interest, where di you get the 14 figure from?

Joe

 

[43167]

They have had 14 sets since May last year when they had set a transfered from EMT.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Ah alright, its just that both ABC Railguide and wiki say they have 32 ie 16 pairs.

 

[yorkie]

Ah alright, its just that both ABC Railguide and wiki say they have 32 ie 16 pairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_125
" the 13 sets are now operated by Department of Transport operator East Coast"

Even if you got 100% availability of power cars (impossible), where would you get the spare coaches from?

 

[jnjkerbin]

Its interesting how wikis page on East Coast says 32 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Coast_(train_operating_company)#section_3

 

[wbbminerals]

Always good to have some diverted HST or 67 action! Anyone know the reason why they are to be diverted though?

 

[43094]

There are 14 sets in total - EC51 to EC64. As a rule of thumb, there is always one set on exam at Craigentinny - the other 13 are available for traffic, and (except on some Saturdays) are usually all in use each day.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
32 relates to the number of Power Cars - 43206/208/238/239/251/257/272/274/277/290/295/296/299/300/302/305-320/367.

When 13 sets are needed, this requires 26 of the 32 Power Cars, leaving 6 for exam, repairs or spare.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Sorry, I think i've been misunderstanding most of what's been said. I get it now . I seem to be a bit slow on the uptake.

Is it likely that most trains normally operated by 91s will still be hauled by these (and 67s between Doncaster and York)?

Thanks
Joe

 

[yorkie]

Is it likely that most trains normally operated by 91s will still be hauled by these (and 67s between Doncaster and York)?

They will want as many HSTs as possible doing this diversion, so will change things around to accommodate.

If this was the days of GNER or NXEC we'd have the full timetable posted on the website for now, indicating traction type for all trains. But under 'Train timetable changes' when selecting 15 December it just says 'We expect a good service across the East Coast route today' - useless!

You can find out what type of train is booked to form a particular service though, go to book a ticket, say yes to obtain a seat reservation, and then continue, then 'view your seat' and you can tell from the layout what type of train it is.

Opentraintimes doesn't have the amended timetable data yet.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Is it likely that most trains normally operated by 91s will still be hauled by these (and 67s between Doncaster and York)?

They will want as many HSTs as possible doing this diversion, so will change things around to accommodate.

If this was the days of GNER or NXEC we'd have the full timetable posted on the website for now, indicating traction type for all trains. But under 'Train timetable changes' when selecting 15 December it just says 'We expect a good service across the East Coast route today' - useless!

If they muck around too much though, surely this could cause problems with the following week's diagrams.

Joe

EDIT: Timetable data is here: http://rail.staging.swlines.co.uk/?location=doncaster&date=15%2F12%2F2012&tocs=0&location_from=&location_to=York&callAtOrigin=1&callAtDestination=1&timespan=3&show_schedules=11&schedule_type=0&show_wtt=1&show_var=1&show_stp=1#

 

[yorkie]

If they muck around too much though, surely this could cause problems with the following week's diagrams.

Joe

The following day you mean? They would want to ensure that HSTs arrive at appropriate depots ready for the following days service.

But they do have to change it a lot as otherwise it won't work! For example the 0813 from Harrogate does not appear to be running, so I expect that service will be a 91 starting at Leeds.

Surely the fact that the train hasn't stopped is clue enough? :razz:

Yes they seem to realise when the train speeds up again!

 

[eastwestdivide]

Anyone know any good photo locations on the Askern line?
I've had a scout around, but between Knottingley and Doncaster it seems to be pretty much flat and boring.