EC 225 Repaint

[Yew]

Hey all,

I was driving to tuxford earlier and I saw what looked like a white IC225. Has anyone got any info on this?

(I saw it from a long way away, looking into the sun, so it might have been a HST, the coaches where in a white livery that could have been the NXEC livery on MK3's. But the locos looked like 91's and im sure i saw some sparks from the OHLE


Thanks all Yew

 

[ainsworth74]

If the coaches were in a white livery then it will have been a HST. Having said that there was one 91 (91 111 specifically) that was painted into NXEC white/silver which you can see below:

 

[Adam_Harrison]

Sound like the HSTs have finally bread with the 91s to make a Class 134 !

 

[Yew]

Sound like the HSTs have finally bread with the 91s to make a Class 134 !

would it be possible for a HST to pull a rake of Mk4's or vice versa?

 

[mallard]

would it be possible for a HST to pull a rake of Mk4's or vice versa?

The 91s were introduced into service slightly before the Mk4s, so they did pull specially adapted HST sets (with the 91 replacing one powercar and the other acting as a DVT).

 

[ainsworth74]

would it be possible for a HST to pull a rake of Mk4's or vice versa?

No as they use different electrical systems and within the Mk4 rake different couplings as well (only the TSOE has a standard LHCS coupling at one end). HST Mk3s also lack buffers which means that a 91 couldn't physically couple to a HST Mk3 rake.

 

[mallard]

No as they use different electrical systems and within the Mk4 rake different couplings as well (only the TSOE has a standard LHCS coupling at one end). HST Mk3s also lack buffers which means that a 91 couldn't physically couple to a HST Mk3 rake.

Not sure if you saw my post, but here are some details and pictures of the short-lived 91+Mk3s+43 formations that ran in passenger service before the Mk4s were delivered. These were HST trailers, not Mk3A carriages. To get around the electrical incompatibility, ETS power was supplied by the 43, but it did not provide any traction.

 

[150222]

Some of those hst powercars are now with grand central and retain buffers.

 

[ainsworth74]

These were HST trailers, not Mk3A carriages. To get around the electrical incompatibility, ETS power was supplied by the 43, but it did not provide any traction.

I am aware of that and fair enough a 91 can couple with HST Mk3s (I thought that the Mk3s were also altered but obviously not). Also the 43s did provide traction to the rakes as otherwise there was a build up of unburnt fuel in the exhaust which eventually caused fires it's reported (from the same site I believe) that the performance was 'impressive' in this formation

 

[E&W Lucas]

Hey all,

I was driving to tuxford earlier and I saw what looked like a white IC225. Has anyone got any info on this?

(I saw it from a long way away, looking into the sun, so it might have been a HST, the coaches where in a white livery that could have been the NXEC livery on MK3's. But the locos looked like 91's and im sure i saw some sparks from the OHLE


Thanks all Yew

Repaints now in a light grey colour, rather than the more expensive metallic paints.

 

[WillPS]

well, 140 + (125/2) = 202.5mph Maybe when 225's are retired, we could get a shortened rake with a 91 on each end, and see if a world record is possible with 50 year old stock?

That's not how it works. First of all, the structural integrity of any railway vehicle is only guaranteed up to the speed at which they were designed and manufactured to run at - in the case of IC225 vehicles this is 140mph.

Critically though, the speed at which engines can run is determined by their gearing*. Higher speed = greater distance between gears = lower rate of acceleration. This is 125mph in the case of Class 91s (which was reduced from the original spec of 140mph in favour of greater acceleration) and HST powercars.

*usually the actual top attainable speed (once you take off any physical restrictions) is a small amount more than their stated running speed, but for the sake of simplification...

In a HST formation, the two powercars are not each responsible for half of the 125mph top speed (if you were to chain together 2 road vehicles running at 70mph they wouldn't magically begin to run at 140mph). Quite frequently HSTs run around with one of the powercars isolated due to a fault (or less frequently without a second powercar at all). They are still able to reach 125mph, they just wont be able to get to that speed anywhere near as quickly as they would with 2 powercars.

For safety reasons alone, the top speed the 91+43 formations could run at was 125mph. Physically, they wouldn't have been able to achieve much more than this either. The factor which made them so impressive was their acceleration; since a 91 is designed to do all the work in getting to 125mph by itself (as they do day-to-day now, and very well at that), assisting it in any way with further power meant that it's acceleration went from "Very Good" to "Outstanding".

 

[Liam]

For safety reasons alone, the top speed the 91+43 formations could run at was 125mph. Physically, they wouldn't have been able to achieve much more than this either.

So explain why a Class 43 reached 148mph and a class 91 reached 162 mph?

 

[WillPS]

So explain why a Class 43 reached 148mph and a class 91 reached 162 mph?

In passenger service.

I acknowledged they are capable of doing a little more than their stated speed but they are geared (and in the case of HSTs built) for service at 125mph.

 

[Failed Unit]

No as they use different electrical systems and within the Mk4 rake different couplings as well (only the TSOE has a standard LHCS coupling at one end). HST Mk3s also lack buffers which means that a 91 couldn't physically couple to a HST Mk3 rake.

Very pedantic of me but a 91 has rescued a HST before and dragged it. The 1530 London - Edinburgh was involved a few years back, it even still has heating etc, but I can't remember if the rear power car was still working.

 

[WillPS]

It must have been, otherwise why would they have needed a HST Powercar rather than a normal DVT for the surrogate DVT 91 sets?

 

[E&W Lucas]

Very pedantic of me but a 91 has rescued a HST before and dragged it. The 1530 London - Edinburgh was involved a few years back, it even still has heating etc, but I can't remember if the rear power car was still working.

No big deal at all. Use the adapter & coupling bar to attach the 91. HST provides it own ETS.

For the umpteenth time on here, HST ETS is incompatible with anything else on the network.

 

[sprinterguy]

So explain why a Class 43 reached 148mph and a class 91 reached 162 mph?

Shortened train formations were used for the record breaking HST and 225 runs, giving a better power to weight ratio. These were one off events that could not be repeated in day to day service any more than A4s could have been expected to acheive 125mph day in, day out in LNER days, as the traction is simply not set up to sustain such operation. The record breaking speeds are outside of what would be expected of the trains in general daily service.

 

[The 158 Man]

Going back to the original question, this could've been one of East Coast's newly liveried Class 91/Mk4 sets in the silver livery?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/5077578211_571a3dd163.jpg

 

[networkrail1]

Could have been this one.

http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/...nt/uploads/2010/08/east-coast-silver-link.png

 

[yorkie]

Very pedantic of me but a 91 has rescued a HST before and dragged it. The 1530 London - Edinburgh was involved a few years back, it even still has heating etc, but I can't remember if the rear power car was still working.

It must have been, otherwise why would they have needed a HST Powercar rather than a normal DVT for the surrogate DVT 91 sets?

They used HST power cars rather than a DVT because the DVTs were not yet ready. Originally the power cars were idling, but this was not good for the engines so they were then powered, this added additional horsepower resulting in some impressive timings.

They only 'needed' the HST power cars to avoid the need for the Class 91s to run around the train.