Ebbsfleet station - terrible accesibility

[ScotGG]

I've known for a long time that the connection between Southeastern's Northfleet station and Ebbsfleet international is pretty awful. They are very close as the crow flies, but there's no quick path between them. Well, in places no path at all - you have to walk on grass or the road on a long winded route. As such it's pretty rubbish for many in SE London and Kent to use as an interchange, meaning many travel all the way into London to come back out. Apparently the landowner (a big housing developer who havn't built in 20 years) refuses to allow a direct path, which would cut the connection between the stations to a quick 5 minutes walk.

I passed by recently and still no work done on that it seemed. But I noticed on the other side of the station that some housing development is now underway at long last. But again, walking seems hopeless. Are there any plans to rectify this before people move in within a year?

If not, I can see many people in the development now going up walking to use Swanscombe or Greenhithe stations instead. It goes directly to where more commuters want to go (the City and West End) instead of Kings Cross. Even if going Stratford then heading to Woolwich Arsenal and changing to DLR isn't bad. And in 2018 going to Abbey Wood and then Crossrail will be very quick. And of course SE traditional routes are FAR cheaper than HS1 - thousands less for a season ticket.

Finally, I thought the car parks at Ebbsfleet were free or at least very cheap. Turns out its £1200 for a spot miles away. With such expensive parking and fares, plus awful links by foot, I'm wondering if the station will not achieve its potential, at least at first?

EDIT: just checked on google maps and the first new houses at Ebbsfleet Valley are 15 mins walk to Swanscombe, or 20 to Ebbsfleet along roads with no pavement. Or you could drive and pay £1200-£1500 extra to park. Buses aren't great. Yet all the marketing is saying 'HS1, HS1!'. A direct path could be put in that would take the walk to 10 mins. Hopefully something happens.

 

[EM2]

Seems to be doing all right. The car parks are almost full every working day, the 08.17 to London (as an example) is often full and standing when it leaves Ebbsfleet, and the ticket offices take more in ticket sales than Orpington.

 

[Southernrover]

You can park all day for £9.20 in the carpark right next to Pfms 5/6.
Not particularly cheap but compareable with parking at other stations in the area.

 

[ScotGG]

If almost full now then they'll be screwed when 15k+ homes are built nearby then. But I'm guessing most of those people who drive now come from further afield. My point was people moving to the first stages of Ebbsfleet Valley now under construction will have a choice of stations, and without easy on foot links to Ebbsfleet will walk to other stations like Greenhithe and Swanscombe. The development is so vast though that around 60%+ of the overall site wouldn't be within walking range which will put strain on Ebbsfleet. Ideally then it seems both traditional and HS1 will need upgrades quite soon.

I looked at some of the developments and the developers have no clue about transport. They are all bigging up Ebbsfleet but seem clueless of the options. One stated trains go to Fenchurch Street on traditional SE lines (!) and another claimed London bridge was 38 mins away but Cannon Street 49. It only takes 4 mins from London Bridge to Cannon Street so that's 42 minutes.

 

[EM2]

If almost full now then they'll be screwed when 15k+ homes are built nearby then. But I'm guessing most of those people who drive now come from further afield.

There's space for more.

My point was people moving to the first stages of Ebbsfleet Valley now under construction will have a choice of stations, and without easy on foot links to Ebbsfleet will walk to other stations like Greenhithe and Swanscombe.

Lack of facilities is nothing new. When I was very young, we moved to a brand-new house on a new estate. Half the roads weren't finished, there were almost no pavements, and it was a mile walk to the nearest bus stop. But when the estate was finished a few years later, it was fantastic.

The development is so vast though that around 60%+ of the overall site wouldn't be within walking range which will put strain on Ebbsfleet. Ideally then it seems both traditional and HS1 will need upgrades quite soon.

And the 60% will probably drive. Or cycle. Or use the Fastrack buses.

Bear in mind that there's a very strong chance that the station and surrounding area will be redeveloped if the Paramount theme park on the Swanscombe peninsula goes ahead.

 

[talldave]

This post led me to take a peek at Google maps, whereupon I noticed that the mysteriously named "Northfleet Coopers Arms" station appears in addition to "Northfleet Station". Someone having a laugh in the pub by any chance??

 

[telstarbox]

Something's gone wrong with the data - it's the same at some stations in SE London as well.

 

[MarkyT]

Original designs for the complex included a dedicated pedestrian link between Ebbsfleet and Northfleet stations, only a few hundred metres apart as the crow flies. Cost saving resulted in removal of that element and there are difficulties coordinating planning and sponsorship for a revived proposal as a local authority boundary cuts between the stations, Network Rail deferred their planned modernisation of Northfleet, and developers of the intermediate land parcels objected to various design proposals. Note the local authority thinks that pedestrian access IS inadequate. . . http://web.gravesham.gov.uk/democra...Gravesham Joint Transportation Board.pdf?T=10 (see pages 65-69)

 

[causton]

Something's gone wrong with the data - it's the same at some stations in SE London as well.

They are Rail Replacement Bus stops no? Obviously wherever they get the data from doesn't tell the difference...


You can always report it to Google and they will remove it if enough people agree! Which I will do now...

 

[EM2]

A quick note re: parking charges. The £1200 annual season ticket is for car parks A, B and C, the ones nearest the station. Based on 48 five-day weeks of work, it works out at a fiver a day.
Car Park D is the one that's further away, that's £5.10 a day with no season ticket available.

 

[theageofthetra]

God help them if they have to use Swanscombe- there is a reason the information displays screens now have a protective mesh!

 

[Maurice3000]

I’ve always found the arrangement of the two stations very odd. However, I seem to recall that originally the local council wanted nothing to do with the “newfangled HS1 malarkey”. I bet they regret that now.

[Crayonista alert!]
I wonder if Ebbsfleet and Northfleet could be integrated into one station. Move all the services (set-down area, taxi rank, parking, shops etc.) to the 100 metres of land in between the two stations and have the main entrances to the stations on that side. This could solve the accessibility issues.

With the Ebbsfleet area earmarked for massive house-building it could become a new centre of sorts.

 

[MarkyT]

From the latest streetview image a pedestrian path has appeared alongside the access road into the north side car park, and Google suggests it as a valid pedestrian route on maps now. It's narrow, but there are now dropped kerbs at highway crossings en route, so it's probably the minimum spec. HS1 had previously objected to making the access less dangerous for pedestrians due to 'security', seemingly a policy in favour of possibly maiming a pensioner in a traffic accident to deter some thugs wandering in and damaging customers' cars.

I forgot to mention Crossrail, which was once proposed to go to Ebbsfleet/Northfleet, and might yet one day. Additional west facing terminating platforms were envisaged, perhaps between the two existing stations, so that would be a good justification to link into both properly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Move all the services (set-down area, taxi rank, parking, shops etc.) to the 100 metres of land in between the two stations and have the main entrances to the stations on that side. This could solve the accessibility issues.

There is already an entrance into Ebbsfleet International station on the north side with access through the car park. HS1 had objected to this being improved or signed as a pedestrian or cycle access due to 'security', even though there was nothing they could do practically to stop people walking in that way short of employing a guard at the car park barrier. They were clearly not THAT worried about customers' parked cars as they weren't prepared to go to the expense of a guard, and the pensioner potentially knocked down at the entrance wouldn't have made it to the ticket office so wouldn't have been a customer . . . It's a little more than 100m between the platforms, but no further than say the new link at Hackney or those proposed at Old Oak Common. There is a local authority boundary between the two stations with Ebbsfleet sitting entirely in Dartford whilst Northfleet is in Gravesham. That makes even small local improvements difficult. A safe path has now been provided in the last 3 years so that's a start, but it's still an unnecessarily long and unattractive walk between the two stations.

With the Ebbsfleet area earmarked for massive house-building it could become a new centre of sorts.

That was always the idea but I think there's a clash between the local authorities and a station that thinks it's an airport.

 

[ScotGG]

I thought I'd check to see station usage nearby and Northfleet was up 39% last year! Swanscombe 11% and Stone Crossing 10%. All are from low bases admittedly. Those sleepy stations could see some further big spikes which may see forecasts re-adjusted, and just yesterday £2m was announced as being spent at Stone Crossing so perhaps that process has begun.

There's space for more.

Lack of facilities is nothing new. When I was very young, we moved to a brand-new house on a new estate. Half the roads weren't finished, there were almost no pavements, and it was a mile walk to the nearest bus stop. But when the estate was finished a few years later, it was fantastic.

And the 60% will probably drive. Or cycle. Or use the Fastrack buses.

Bear in mind that there's a very strong chance that the station and surrounding area will be redeveloped if the Paramount theme park on the Swanscombe peninsula goes ahead.

Yep I've seen more than a fair share of new build areas not quite ready when people move in. I suppose the difference I was thinking here is that this is on a huge scale and is constantly trumpeted by Osborne (and Brown before) as a major project. And yet with work now well underway nothing substantial is moving forward to rectify the issues. There's often some plans with developments, even if they are't quite ready. Inertia seems the case here. Are the two councils that poles apart?

So really I was wondering how that plays into NR and Southeastern's planning. It seems they assume the vast majority of newcomers will use HS1 which I'm not sure about. Many will but perhaps less than they forecast.

The paramount park I'd forgotten about and that will also place pressure on the traditional line.