Ebbsfleet - Flogging a Dead Horse ?

[yorksrob]

I was reading in Modern Railways that Kent County Council is looking to extend the Crossrail Abbey Wood branch to Ebbsfleet.

I can see the point of extending to Dartford, but to extend to Ebbsfleet at great expense seems like a complete waste of money in my opinion. As well as the old North Kent line, this white elephant already has stops on high speed 1, and has inexplicably attracted international services from the strategically more useful interchange at Ashford. Every time I travel through the place it looks like a wasteland. Surely it's about time they stopped throwing money down this hole.

 

[Starmill]

There is to be very significant development in the area.

Abbey Wood is a poor location to terminate at in the long-term term. A connection from Ebssfleet into South East London and Dartford would be very useful. This currently isn't possible without changing again at Gravesend.

 

[yorksrob]

There is to be very significant development in the area.

Abbey Wood is a poor location to terminate at in the long-term term. A connection from Ebssfleet into South East London and Dartford would be very useful. This currently isn't possible without changing again at Gravesend.

They've been telling us about that 'significant development' since I were a lad (and that was a long time ago ). I'm afraid the place has white elephant written all over it and is looking as doomed as the old Southern Railway's attempts to turn Lydd-on-Sea into the new Margate.

There must surely be other more worthwhile projects in Kent and East Sussex that the money can be spent on.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Domestically, 1.6 million entries and exits according to the ORR stats for 2015-16, and major housing developments just starting nearby (delayed by the recession).
When I've used it for Eurostar, the departure lounge has been maybe half full max. Don't know what Ashford's like in comparison.
Whether it's a more or less strategic stop than Ashford for international services is arguable - if you're driving, Ebbsfleet's location close to the M25/A2 is handier than Ashford for a lot of Sussex (via the M23/M25), and large parts of Kent, SE London and Essex. If you're going to Ebbsfleet by train to catch Eurostar though, it's let down by not having easy rail access from the west (SE London to Northfleet anyone?).

Edited to add Redrow and Barratt housing developments:
https://www.redrow.co.uk/developments/ebbsfleet-green-ebbsfleet-212404

We are planning up to 950 new homes in total at Ebbsfleet Green which will be released in a number of phases. These will be a mix of one and two bed apartments and three, four and five bedroom houses for private sale. There will also be affordable housing available for rent and shared ownership. This second phase of 181 new properties are currently under construction with further properties scheduled for release over the coming months

https://www.barratthomes.co.uk/new-homes/kent/H711001-Castle-Hill/

Construction work of the 112 apartments at Castle Hill started last March with the first apartment block 'Parker House' almost sold! Due to sites popularity we released our second apartment block 'Portland House' early, which is currently selling successfully off-plan.

The elephant may be gaining some colour soon.

 

[eastwestdivide]

PS was the "flogging a dead horse" in the thread title a reference to the abandoned plans for a giant white horse sculpture?
e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/mar/05/angel-south-london-mark-wallinger-ebbsfleet

 

[yorksrob]

Domestically, 1.6 million entries and exits according to the ORR stats for 2015-16, and major housing developments just starting nearby (delayed by the recession).
When I've used it for Eurostar, the departure lounge has been maybe half full max. Don't know what Ashford's like in comparison.
Whether it's a more or less strategic stop than Ashford for international services is arguable - if you're driving, Ebbsfleet's location close to the M25/A2 is handier than Ashford for a lot of Sussex (via the M23/M25), and large parts of Kent, SE London and Essex. If you're going to Ebbsfleet by train to catch Eurostar though, it's let down by not having easy rail access from the west (SE London to Northfleet anyone?).

Edited to add Redrow and Barratt housing developments:
https://www.redrow.co.uk/developments/ebbsfleet-green-ebbsfleet-212404


https://www.barratthomes.co.uk/new-homes/kent/H711001-Castle-Hill/


The elephant may be gaining some colour soon.

I suppose the fact that it's a giant car park might explain some of the passenger figures. As for housing, it's had plenty of rail investment to be getting on with. Let them get some stuff built there before they spend any more.

 

[yorksrob]

]

PS was the "flogging a dead horse" in the thread title a reference to the abandoned plans for a giant white horse sculpture?
e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/mar/05/angel-south-london-mark-wallinger-ebbsfleet

I genuinely had no idea, but as someone born and bred in Kent, I am familiar with Invicta.

 

[eastwestdivide]

]

I genuinely had no idea, but as someone born and bred in Kent, I am familiar with Invicta.

Yes, me too. Trouble is, the planned statue wasn't even Invicta, just a horse standing still. I secretly think it was for Londoners returning from trips to Paris, so they could break into a jolly Cockernee song "maybe it's big horse I'm a Londoner...."

Back to your original point, the extension of Crossrail is I think more of a wish list thing - there's been a discussion over on London Reconnections
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/the-kent-route-study-part-2-crossrail-to-gravesend/
which seems pretty inconclusive as to the benefits of extending Crossrail E of Abbey Wood.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, me too. Trouble is, the planned statue wasn't even Invicta, just a horse standing still. I secretly think it was for Londoners returning from trips to Paris, so they could break into a jolly Cockernee song "maybe it's big horse I'm a Londoner...."

Back to your original point, the extension of Crossrail is I think more of a wish list thing - there's been a discussion over on London Reconnections
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/the-kent-route-study-part-2-crossrail-to-gravesend/
which seems pretty inconclusive as to the benefits of extending Crossrail E of Abbey Wood.

It could be Invicta having a rest !

In truth, I could see the point in extending to Dartford as that is a large urban area. The rest always seems a bit empty until Gravesend.

 

[EM2]

Ebbsfleet makes more money for Southeastern than almost any other station. One car park is almost always full before 8am, another is close to full.
Castle Hill is already attracting residents, the first school there will be opening for the coming academic year.
If you go there over the next couple of years, you'll see a small exhibition from the Ebbsfleet Development Corporation showing the extent of the development that's going on.

 

[yorksrob]

On the few occasions I use it (I prefer the classic routes) there never seem to be vast numbers of people getting on or off.

Paddock Wood seems to produce more activity. Perhaps commuters drive there.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the extension of the Abbey Wood arm of London Crossrail, have any plans been drawn up or proposed for it to seriously penetrate Thamesmead?

 

[rebmcr]

Regarding the extension of the Abbey Wood arm of London Crossrail, have any plans been drawn up or proposed for it to seriously penetrate Thamesmead?

No, the plans are to use safeguarded land along the north edge of the existing formation as far as Slade Green Junction, then continue with that layout into Dartford (which will require some land take).

 

[EM2]

On the few occasions I use it (I prefer the classic routes) there never seem to be vast numbers of people getting on or off.

Paddock Wood seems to produce more activity. Perhaps commuters drive there.

Try it in the peaks.

 

[cle]

Isn't there a theme park coming there?

Crossrail would serve:
Lots of development in Erith/Belvedere (if trains stopped)
Dartford
Bluewater
Ebbsfleet - existing planned developments, interchange, garden city
Gravesend

And remove a lot of North Kent services. Think: units, Lewisham paths, London Bridge paths, relocated tube passengers at the termini...

I think it should actually continue east and become the only service along the line - probably terminating at a mix of Gravesend, Rochester, Gillingham and Rainham. That whole stretch is pretty much a metro area, with lots of off peak, counter peak and local journeys.

 

[Tio Terry]

I was reading in Modern Railways that Kent County Council is looking to extend the Crossrail Abbey Wood branch to Ebbsfleet.

I can see the point of extending to Dartford, but to extend to Ebbsfleet at great expense seems like a complete waste of money in my opinion. As well as the old North Kent line, this white elephant already has stops on high speed 1, and has inexplicably attracted international services from the strategically more useful interchange at Ashford. Every time I travel through the place it looks like a wasteland. Surely it's about time they stopped throwing money down this hole.

There are a few issues to overcome if this is to be pursued, not least the issue of dual electrification systems. The design of the station allows one through route to the "cripple siding" which has track access to the North Kent but it is not a signalled move, so changes to the signalling system. In the reverse direction the same applies, the trackwork is there but there is not a signalled route for passenger trains. There are multiple IBJ's in the Engineer's Siding to isolate any earth currents that may flow between the two electrification systems, if there is to be a regular service an arrangement similar to that at Fawkham Junction will be required to separate the two systems. It's all possible but it's also costly.

I'm not sure what affect it will have on the existing timetable if trains have to cross from the Up North Kent to access Crossrail, it's not a fast turnout because it's a little used route.

In terms of "inexplicably attracted international services from the strategically more useful interchange at Ashford", I have quite a number of family members in Norfolk and Suffolk. When they want to use E* - which is more often than you might think - then Ebbsfleet is the perfect location for them. Drive there from East Anglia and get the train there to Paris or Brussels with no real problems.

 

[EM2]

Isn't there a theme park coming there?

It's been put back *again* with the gates not now expected to open until 2023. They haven't even got planning permission yet and aren't going to be putting their application in until next Spring.

 

[yorksrob]

It's been put back *again* with the gates not now expected to open until 2023. They haven't even got planning permission yet and aren't going to be putting their application in until next Spring.

They need to get Dreamland going, back in Margate - and I mean as it was in the 80's with higher end rides like the loop the loop and the Mary Rose. They all got flogged off by some asset stripper unfortunately.

 

[Ianno87]

In terms of "inexplicably attracted international services from the strategically more useful interchange at Ashford", I have quite a number of family members in Norfolk and Suffolk. When they want to use E* - which is more often than you might think - then Ebbsfleet is the perfect location for them. Drive there from East Anglia and get the train there to Paris or Brussels with no real problems.

Remember E* choose to serve Ebbsfleet on an entirely commercial basis - they have no legal/contractual obligation to do so, so at least are not losing money on the operation there. They could switch focus back to Ashford at pretty much any time if they so desired. But they haven't with nearly 10 years of Ebbsfleet operation under their belt now. So it must be achieving *something*.

Last time I looked at the timetable of calls there, there was a heavy focus on morning/early afternoon calls for continent-bound trains Quite a neat way of filling up spare capacity coming out of London before the loads out of St Pancras get heavier later in the day.

 

[Starmill]

Ashford is likely to see an increase in its service (at least, to Paris) again when the signalling issues are sorted to permit the Velaro stock to call there.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Abbey Wood is a poor location to terminate at in the long-term term. A connection from Ebssfleet into South East London and Dartford would be very useful. This currently isn't possible without changing again at Gravesend.

Or by just using Northfleet station nearby

 

[Rail Ranger]

Eurostar prefer to call at Ebbsfleet rather than Ashford because they have to pay Network Rail an access charge every time they call at Ashford.

 

[EM2]

Or by just using Northfleet station nearby

Have you tried the walk from Ebbsfleet to Northfleet? To quote Eddie the computer in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, it's 'a whole bunch of no fun'.
And the environs of Northfleet station itself are, shall we say, less than salubrious.

 

[HowardGWR]

Have you tried the walk from Ebbsfleet to Northfleet? To quote Eddie the computer in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, it's 'a whole bunch of no fun'.
And the environs of Northfleet station itself are, shall we say, less than salubrious.

Was it Diamond Geezer, in his blog, who described this walk, even more graphically than you just did? Is it still the same then?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Have you tried the walk from Ebbsfleet to Northfleet? To quote Eddie the computer in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, it's 'a whole bunch of no fun'.
And the environs of Northfleet station itself are, shall we say, less than salubrious.

I have to admit, no, I was going by the rather obvious proximity of the two stations on the map, and the fact that Northfleet always seemed quite pleasant every time I've cycled through it [1]. I do, despite your post, wonder whether building some decent walkway or even (if you have additional money to throw at it) a moving escalator between the stations would be a more efficient use of money than building a spur to run some trains to Ebbsfleet. After all, if the goal is better connections are required between HS1 and Dartford/SE London: If trains are split between two stations then clearly you can only get half the frequency at each one.

(Or would it be better to build a chord and then run all Gravesend trains via Ebbsfleet instead of Northfleet? I'm guessing that would not be good for local residents though)

[1] The village, that is, not the station

 

[EM2]

The route is better than in those blog posts, with there being actual pavements in place these days, but it still means a convoluted route.
There is a link (in fact, a boulevard ) between the stations proposed as part of the Ebbsfleet Garden City development, but there seems to be no sign of it happening any time soon.

 

[brad465]

Have you tried the walk from Ebbsfleet to Northfleet? To quote Eddie the computer in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, it's 'a whole bunch of no fun'.
And the environs of Northfleet station itself are, shall we say, less than salubrious.

Having run the distance in the past in <9 minutes to make a change from Northfleet to a service at Ebbsfleet, it is nasty. Thankfully timetable changes as a result of the rounder HS service mean I don't have to do that anymore.

 

[fgwrich]

Going back to the talk of development around Ebbsfleet itself, I'm not sure if it's still happening but don't forget that the Ebbsfleet area was also earmarked to become one of the governments New Garden Cities. So it will ultimately and slowly be gaining further traffic in the future.

 

[Chris125]

It's been put back *again* with the gates not now expected to open until 2023. They haven't even got planning permission yet and aren't going to be putting their application in until next Spring.

Paramount recently pulled out so progress seems unlikely anytime soon, even if their keen to suggest otherwise.

 

[goblinuser]

Isn't Ebbsfleet pointless for Crossrail to serve?
Why not blast there on a class 395 on HS1 from St Pancras?