Eastbourne Services - Class 442

[RichardKing]

The following Eastbourne-based services are operated by 442 units:

Monday - Friday:
5F82 - Eastbourne Sidings to Eastbourne (unknown timings);
1F82 - Eastbourne (07:12) to London Bridge (08:50);
1F83 - London Bridge (18:23) to Eastbourne (19:55);
5F83 - Eastbourne to Eastbourne Sidings (unknown timings);

Saturday (Summer special):
5F75 - Eastbourne Sidings to Eastbourne (unknown timings);
1F75 - Eastbourne (08:22) to London Victoria (09:56);
1F72 - London Victoria (17:21) to Eastbourne (18:37);
5F72 - Eastbourne to Eastbourne Sidings (unknown timings);

When the class 442s are replaced by the 387/2s, does anyone know unit will operate the above services (and the Brighton Express services)?

My opinion is that the 442 units should remain in use for the Brighton Express and Eastbourne commuter services, and the 387/2s should be used solely for the Gatwick Express services.

 

[swt_passenger]

387/2 will definitely operate both the Gatwick and Brighton express services.

A small number of 442s (is it 6?) are being kept for Eastbourne. IMHO that will only be temporary though, until 377/x become available when the entire 700 fleet has arrived.

(It's best not to ask the same question in more than one sub-forum, I'll ask the mods to delete the other thread.)

 

[RichardKing]

387/2 will definitely operate both the Gatwick and Brighton express services.

A small number of 442s (is it 6?) are being kept for Eastbourne. IMHO that will only be temporary though, until 377/x become available when the entire 700 fleet has arrived.

(It's best not to ask the same question in more than one sub-forum, I'll ask the mods to delete the other thread.)

Sorry about that mate, I'm a new one on here. I've only just realised that there is a specific traction and rolling stock section so I thought it would be better to post it in there. If you could ask them to delete the other one, I would be grateful.

 

[physics34]

Yeh swt_passenger is correct. Southern are keeping 6x442 units for the above services until 2018 when they will be replaced by 377s when the 700s will displace some 377s.

The remaining 18x442s will be returned to the leasing company where they may find further use. The latest rumour is they maybe used on push pull transpennie services.

The extended Gatwick express services to Brighton from this December are basically the Brighton expresses and will be all 387/2s

The Brighton expresses as we currently know them will no longer exist.

 

[RichardKing]

Yeh swt_passenger is correct. Southern are keeping 6x442 units for the above services until 2018 when they will be replaced by 377s when the 700s will displace some 377s.

The remaining 18x442s will be returned to the leasing company where they may find further use. The latest rumour is they maybe used on push pull transpennie services.

The extended Gatwick express services to Brighton from this December are basically the Brighton expresses and will be all 387/2s

It is a shame the 442s are being replaced. They are good units! The sound of the motor during acceleration is one of the best things about the unit!

When talking about the Brighton Express, I was making reference to the London Victoria to Brighton services that do not call at Gatwick Airport (Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Brighton). Most of those services are operated by 377s. However, some (especially during the evening) do use the 442s.

The Transpennine rumour is rather interesting!

 

[Stats]

When talking about the Brighton Express, I was making reference to the London Victoria to Brighton services that do not call at Gatwick Airport (Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Brighton). Most of those services are operated by 377s. However, some (especially during the evening) do use the 442s.

From December Brighton expresses will be replaced by extended Gatwick Express services every half hour calling at Gatwick Airport only.

 

[RichardKing]

From December Brighton expresses will be replaced by extended Gatwick Express services every half hour calling at Gatwick Airport only.

Oh right - so there will be no more xx:06/7 and xx:36/7 Victoria to Brighton services with the current calling pattern?

 

[tsr]

Welcome to the forum, RichardKing; but please be aware (you weren't necessarily to know this, of course, and this isn't a gripe against you at all) that we have had approximately one trillion threads on the future reuse of 442s (or not), and therefore there is regrettably likely to be some derision arising from any further discussion about that.

However, the point of your original post is nonetheless interesting and valid. 442s are indeed being kept for Eastbourne. This will vastly reduce the diversity of which services they're used on.

As I say, welcome! But we can be a bit snarky about 442 reuse at times
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh right - so there will be no more xx:06/7 and xx:36/7 Victoria to Brighton services with the current calling pattern?

The entire off-peak timetable is subject to a complete "recast" in December this year, so timings will be altered anyway. Brighton services will indeed be changed at least off-peak, but I dare say there could be a few trains which have different/non-stop calling patterns in the peak times which bear a vague similarity to current expresses. I don't know for certain, could well be wrong and that is speculation on my part.

 

[Bishopstone]

To expand on the above, only 2x442 are needed for the M-F Eastbourne peak trains.

My understanding is that the peak Brighton-London Bridge and return currently worked by a further 2x442 will also remain a 442 diagram, for the time being.

Therefore six units retained, with four diagrammed and two spare. Brighton will continue to see 442s, twice a day.

Happy to be corrected if I've got this wrong or the plan has changed.

 

[carriageline]

I've had a thought, when they need to get rid of them, surely 442s are a perfect replacement for them?! You can't scrap such a great unit (etc etc)

Wait a minute, that doesn't quite work here!!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Couple a 73/9 to one & use them on the Reading - Gatwicks, releasing a few more 165/166's.

[Don's tin hat & runs for cover!]

 

[RichardKing]

Welcome to the forum, RichardKing; but please be aware (you weren't necessarily to know this, of course, and this isn't a gripe against you at all) that we have had approximately one trillion threads on the future reuse of 442s (or not), and therefore there is regrettably likely to be some derision arising from any further discussion about that.

However, the point of your original post is nonetheless interesting and valid. 442s are indeed being kept for Eastbourne. This will vastly reduce the diversity of which services they're used on.

As I say, welcome! But we can be a bit snarky about 442 reuse at times
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The entire off-peak timetable is subject to a complete "recast" in December this year, so timings will be altered anyway. Brighton services will indeed be changed at least off-peak, but I dare say there could be a few trains which have different/non-stop calling patterns in the peak times which bear a vague similarity to current expresses. I don't know for certain, could well be wrong and that is speculation on my part.

Hi Mate!

I had no idea the future of the class 442 was commonly mentioned on here!
Thank you for taking the time to give me a welcome to this site! It is appreciated!

I'm glad they are being kept on the London Bridge - Eastbourne/Brighton services - that is my area!

I'll look forward to seeing the new timetable then! It will be rather interesting.

Thanks again!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To expand on the above, only 2x442 are needed for the M-F Eastbourne peak trains.

My understanding is that the peak Brighton-London Bridge and return currently worked by a further 2x442 will also remain a 442 diagram, for the time being.

Therefore six units retained, with four diagrammed and two spare. Brighton will continue to see 442s, twice a day.

Happy to be corrected if I've got this wrong or the plan has changed.

Hi!

This does seem logical so I'd imagine this will be the case.
It's always handy to have 2x442 units spare!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've had a thought, when they need to get rid of them, surely 442s are a perfect replacement for them?! You can't scrap such a great unit (etc etc)

Wait a minute, that doesn't quite work here!!

Sadly enough, that is the case. You can't replace such a mighty unit...with itself! Well, you can't replace a mighty unit at all really. However, that is a discussion for another time!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Couple a 73/9 to one & use them on the Reading - Gatwicks, releasing a few more 165/166's.

[Don's tin hat & runs for cover!]

It would be rather interesting to see a 442 in First Great Western livery!

 

[CosherB]

It would be rather interesting to see a 442 in First Great Western livery!

No it wouldn't, and thankfully it isn't going to happen.

 

[RichardKing]

No it wouldn't, and thankfully it isn't going to happen.

It would be one hell of a paint-job.

 

[Stats]

I'll look forward to seeing the new timetable then! It will be rather interesting.

You may be interested in having a read of the consultation on the proposed new timetable ran at the back end of last year. It is likely there will be some modifications to this as a result of feedback, but it gives you an idea of the thinking.

 

[RichardKing]

You may be interested in having a read of the consultation on the proposed new timetable ran at the back end of last year. It is likely there will be some modifications to this as a result of feedback, but it gives you an idea of the thinking.

I'll have to have a good look at that tomorrow. Thank you for the link mate.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will the traction motors be able to made last to 2018? It would be nice to see them do 2 or 3 rail tours on the SWML between Weymouth and Waterloo as a kinda 30th birthday celebration

 

[Emblematic]

Will the traction motors be able to made last to 2018? It would be nice to see them do 2 or 3 rail tours on the SWML between Weymouth and Waterloo as a kinda 30th birthday celebration

The motors are nearer their 50th anniversary, but they should be able to keep 1/4 of them running a a few years longer, especially if the rest of the fleet are being de-tractioned - lots of spares.

 

[al.currie93]

The Transpennine rumour is rather interesting!

Welcome to the forum from myself as well

Don't worry, you won't get any 442 gripes from me the TPE rumour interests me as well - I believe it's slightly more than a rumour but quite a possibility. The franchise specification (if that's the right word for it!) specifies what rolling stock can be used by the new train operator for their train services, and one of the limited number of classes that it specifies is "Vehicles from Class 442."

I put quite a detailed analysis on this on an earlier thread a while ago but cannot seem to find it. But given that the list of vehicles was fairly limited, and that I believe that someone also mentioned a while back that DRS have been asked to provide costings for providing 68s to haul them, we could well see the un-powered vehicles of the current 442s attached to locomotives and used on TPE. If they do have a use after Gatwick Express, I reckon that this is the most likely

EDIT: Found the link for the ITT

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...transpennine-express-invitation-to-tender.pdf

Pages 92 and 93 show the rolling stock specifications - if these are analysed a bit, then it seems that without either locomotive hauled class 442 vehicles or a new build of trains, they won't have enough stock to cover their services.

 

[RichardKing]

Welcome to the forum from myself as well

Don't worry, you won't get any 442 gripes from me the TPE rumour interests me as well - I believe it's slightly more than a rumour but quite a possibility. The franchise specification (if that's the right word for it!) specifies what rolling stock can be used by the new train operator for their train services, and one of the limited number of classes that it specifies is "Vehicles from Class 442."

I put quite a detailed analysis on this on an earlier thread a while ago but cannot seem to find it. But given that the list of vehicles was fairly limited, and that I believe that someone also mentioned a while back that DRS have been asked to provide costings for providing 68s to haul them, we could well see the un-powered vehicles of the current 442s attached to locomotives and used on TPE. If they do have a use after Gatwick Express, I reckon that this is the most likely

EDIT: Found the link for the ITT

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...transpennine-express-invitation-to-tender.pdf

Pages 92 and 93 show the rolling stock specifications - if these are analysed a bit, then it seems that without either locomotive hauled class 442 vehicles or a new build of trains, they won't have enough stock to cover their services.

Hi!
Thanks for the welcome Al I really do appreciate the warm welcome I have had to this forum!
I would like to think that all 442 units will, after Southern (& Gatwick Express), continue to be used and won't be sent to the scrapyard. These units are too good to be scrapped!
On having a look at the attached document, it does seem rather likely that the 442s will be used on TPE services.
If I had the money and the space, I would definitely have a think about preserving them myself (in the (Gatwick) Express livery, of course!)

Thanks again!

 

[RobShipway]

Hi!
Thanks for the welcome Al I really do appreciate the warm welcome I have had to this forum!
I would like to think that all 442 units will, after Southern (& Gatwick Express), continue to be used and won't be sent to the scrapyard. These units are too good to be scrapped!
On having a look at the attached document, it does seem rather likely that the 442s will be used on TPE services.
If I had the money and the space, I would definitely have a think about preserving them myself (in the (Gatwick) Express livery, of course!)

Thanks again!

Welcome to the forum. You will find quite a bit of what has been said about the class 442's in the thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112166&highlight=class+442.

As I mentioned within this thread I can see class 73's hauling the class 442 units, especially the class 73/9's with double the diesel power of the earlier class 73's within them.

With regards to TPE though, I think that they maybe better in getting an Aventra version of the class 172 with 4 coaches per train and be like the class 172/3 with London Midland, if there was a way to be able to use the agreement that London Midland has for a further 26 class 172's to be built. Either that or London Midland uses it's requirement for the 26 class 172's and the 23 class 170's that London Midland have transfer to TPE.

 

[RichardKing]

Welcome to the forum. You will find quite a bit of what has been said about the class 442's in the thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112166&highlight=class+442.

As I mentioned within this thread I can see class 73's hauling the class 442 units, especially the class 73/9's with double the diesel power of the earlier class 73's within them.

With regards to TPE though, I think that they maybe better in getting an Aventra version of the class 172 with 4 coaches per train and be like the class 172/3 with London Midland, if there was a way to be able to use the agreement that London Midland has for a further 26 class 172's to be built. Either that or London Midland uses it's requirement for the 26 class 172's and the 23 class 170's that London Midland have transfer to TPE.

On looking at that thread, I agree that the 387/2s should be leased out to SouthEastern for at least two years to help with the overcrowding (mainly caused by the London Bridge works). The 442s could remain with Southern on its current duties.

I didn't know that 377/1s were due to be cascaded to SouthEastern? I like the units numbered 101-139; they seem to be slightly brighter than the /2s and /4s. At least, if that does happen, we'll still have the /3s

 

[swt_passenger]

On looking at that thread, I agree that the 387/2s should be leased out to SouthEastern for at least two years to help with the overcrowding (mainly caused by the London Bridge works). The 442s could remain with Southern on its current duties.

...back in the real world, the incoming TSGN franchisee is required to use more appropriate stock than the 442s on the Gatwick & Brighton expresses.

I doubt there's anything you can suggest that is new to these forums, I'd start accepting that the 442s are life expired traction that won't be around for much longer.

 

[RichardKing]

...back in the real world, the incoming TSGN franchisee is required to use more appropriate stock than the 442s on the Gatwick & Brighton expresses.

I doubt there's anything you can suggest that is new to these forums, I'd start accepting that the 442s are life expired traction that won't be around for much longer.

If we're talking about appropriate stock, the seating on the 387/1 isn't exactly comfortable. For a unit that runs on a, you could say, long-haul journey, you would expect the seats to be less harsh on the back.

The 442s have been on Southern Mainline duties for 7 years now...30 more months wouldn't hurt.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Long haul journey? Thames link? Most people either go to London or through the core.

GatEx isn't exactly a long journey either. Neither is Victoria - Brighton.

 

[RichardKing]

Long haul journey? Thames link? Most people either go to London or through the core.

GatEx isn't exactly a long journey either. Neither is Victoria - Brighton.

From previous experience, the Brighton to Bedford run is quite a long journey. I call it 'long-haul' due to the fact that most of my services are much shorter.

I did not suggest that the Gatwick Express service or even the London-Brighton service is long-haul.

I was insinuating, however, the seats on the 442 are very comfortable (compared to the 387). For an Airport service, a unit should have been chosen with more comforting seats.

 

[hwl]

On looking at that thread, I agree that the 387/2s should be leased out to SouthEastern for at least two years to help with the overcrowding (mainly caused by the London Bridge works). The 442s could remain with Southern on its current duties.

I didn't know that 377/1s were due to be cascaded to SouthEastern? I like the units numbered 101-139; they seem to be slightly brighter than the /2s and /4s. At least, if that does happen, we'll still have the /3s

Leasing the 387/2 to SE doesn't make sense because they aren't compatible with the existing SE rolling stock and you would then have to unit swap at some point in the future.
Sending 25x 377/1 does make sense because they were built in between 2 batches of 375s and are the closest you can get spec. wise to a 375 so minimal modifications are needed (just the TMS etc. and the external cameras?) thus reducing SE's rolling stock compatibility issues.

The current plan as I understand it for the 377/3 is that most move a bit further north on average and are used to form more 10 car metro services with 2x 377/3 and a 377/4 or /1 so a /3 making it to the coast might be quite rare in the future.

The class 700s also feature the same seats as the 377/6 &/7 and 387/1 & /2 so you should start getting used to them...

 

[physics34]

From December Brighton expresses will be replaced by extended Gatwick Express services every half hour calling at Gatwick Airport only.

which means croydon no longer has a non stop to brighton service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Leasing the 387/2 to SE doesn't make sense because they aren't compatible with the existing SE rolling stock and you would then have to unit swap at some point in the future.
Sending 25x 377/1 does make sense because they were built in between 2 batches of 375s and are the closest you can get spec. wise to a 375 so minimal modifications are needed (just the TMS etc. and the external cameras?) thus reducing SE's rolling stock compatibility issues.

The current plan as I understand it for the 377/3 is that most move a bit further north on average and are used to form more 10 car metro services with 2x 377/3 and a 377/4 or /1 so a /3 making it to the coast might be quite rare in the future.

The class 700s also feature the same seats as the 377/6 &/7 and 387/1 & /2 so you should start getting used to them...

Seating layout in the 377/3 could be changed to higher density in the future. There are whispers about it and Network Rail have mentioned it in a document.

 

[RichardKing]

Leasing the 387/2 to SE doesn't make sense because they aren't compatible with the existing SE rolling stock and you would then have to unit swap at some point in the future.
Sending 25x 377/1 does make sense because they were built in between 2 batches of 375s and are the closest you can get spec. wise to a 375 so minimal modifications are needed (just the TMS etc. and the external cameras?) thus reducing SE's rolling stock compatibility issues.

The current plan as I understand it for the 377/3 is that most move a bit further north on average and are used to form more 10 car metro services with 2x 377/3 and a 377/4 or /1 so a /3 making it to the coast might be quite rare in the future.

The class 700s also feature the same seats as the 377/6 &/7 and 387/1 & /2 so you should start getting used to them...

You are quite right about the 387/2s; it's just wishful thinking on my part. I have grown to love the 442s on the Southern network, hence why I will be sad to see them leave.
Will we ever see the 25 377/1s back on Southern ground?
I shall have to buy myself a cushion for my back!

 

[CosherB]

As I mentioned within this thread I can see class 73's hauling the class 442 units, especially the class 73/9's with double the diesel power of the earlier class 73's within them.

Is 1,600hp in a GBRf 73/9 really enough to make brisk progress with a 5-car 442 set, even if the MLC is stripped of traction equipment?