East West Rail Project (Rolling Stock)

[swt_passenger]

This is off topic, but why is Denbigh Hall South Junction called Denbigh Hall South? Denbigh is in Wales and I don't think there is anywhere nearby called Denbigh Hall?

Denbigh Hall would have been demolished prior to modern development, there are streets in the right location named after it, just west of where the WCML crosses the old A5, Watling St. But there was also a temporary station called Denbigh Hall at that bridge when the line was being progressively opened. So that would probably define the location for railway purposes anyway, whatever happened to local buildings in the meantime...

 

[newtownmgr]

Think the last 6 2 car 196’s will be the ones on loan to EWR based at Bletchley. They will be used on Oxford - Milton Keynes services until the rest of the line through to
Cambridge is open. When the complete line opens they will be replaced by new hybrid/low emissions units. The 196’s will then return to WMR.

 

[Cantab26]

Think the last 6 2 car 196’s will be the ones on loan to EWR based at Bletchley. They will be used on Oxford - Milton Keynes services until the rest of the line through to
Cambridge is open. When the complete line opens they will be replaced by new hybrid/low emissions units. The 196’s will then return to WMR.

Exactly.

 

[Mordac]

So what is WMT expected to do with the services those 196s were going to operate?

 

[newtownmgr]

So what is WMT expected to do with the services those 196s were going to operate?

Run them with what they’ve got. When WMR took over we had 136 diesel vehicles. (150/153/170/172). Once the 170’s have gone & the 196’s are in service along with the 172/0 & 172/1’s we will have 173 vehicles,less 12 vehicles to EWR that still leaves 161. Plus 25 vehicles. Allows for a full pre Covid service to be reinstated plus strengthening & Camp Hill services.

 

[DarloRich]

This is off topic, but why is Denbigh Hall South Junction called Denbigh Hall South? Denbigh is in Wales and I don't think there is anywhere nearby called Denbigh Hall?

There was a Denbigh Hall Railway station that was used for about 6 months while Kilsby (?) tunnel was completed. The station was constructed at the point where the WCML crosses Watling street to create perhaps the first integrated transport hub ( you could get a stage coach!) Odd that we in Bletchley are still waiting for the same to be delivered in the 21st century

As to the name more widely you pays your money and takes your choice: It doesn't appear there was a Denbigh Hall as such but there was a Denbigh Hall inn on Watling Street ( assume a coaching inn - although we had the premier ones in Fenny Stratford ) which changed its name after the Earl (?) of Denbigh stayed there on a trip to London. The inn was somewhere in the vicinity of the bridge that crosses Watling Street, where the station was situated!

There was also a Denbigh Farm in the area and the suggestion is farm land was taken to build the line. The third option is that this farm was actually Denbigh Hall and the stories kind of got mixed up and the hall and the farm and the inn are all the same place!

Perhaps @Bletchleyite can add more. All you need to know is that Fenny Stratford is the older community and much more important than either Bletchley or MK siting as it does on Watling Street and the Grand Union. Only the Railway let us down

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps @Bletchleyite can add more. All you need to know is that Fenny Stratford is the older community and much more important than either Bletchley or MK siting as it does on Watling Street and the Grand Union. Only the Railway let us down

Can't add much, but the present Bletchley town centre (near the station) is maybe 1950s-60s build, with Fenny indeed being much older. Bletchley village centre (in the days when Alan Turing was busy codebreaking away) was located on the junction of Shenley Road and Buckingham Road, where today you find a bit of a "local centre" with a couple of pubs (there were once 4 I think), a Tesco Express, a Co-op* and a barber's shop (Cutting Corner) which may well be in one of the original shop units. In the codebreaking days Bletchley Park (which was officially said to be a radio factory, if I recall) was in the middle of fields.

Some would argue it's moved again to the stadium/Tesco/Asda/Ikea etc developments, which is obviously not great for the railway. One could actually argue Denbigh Hall station might be useful now!

This all might somewhat go to explain why the station entrance would appear to outsiders to be on the "wrong" side - it wasn't the wrong side when it was built.

* Many felt the coming of Tesco would kill it off, but it hasn't - more people go there, because if one hasn't got what you want, the other one will.

 

[A0]

It is ridiculous to build a new railway, specifically one that is supposed to take freight, nowadays without electrifying it from the outset. I don't understand why the government doesn't see this

As I recall from earlier threads, part of the reason for not electrifying at this point is Oxford wiring and re-signalling also needs to happen - so wiring EWR from day 1 actually creates more problems than it solves because it's not a case of simply doing EWR in isolation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I recall from earlier threads, part of the reason for not electrifying at this point is Oxford wiring and re-signalling also needs to happen - so wiring EWR from day 1 actually creates more problems than it solves because it's not a case of simply doing EWR in isolation.

Is there a technical reason (not political) it couldn't just be wired by connecting it to the WCML wires at Bletchley? It's not that far, and Windermere is repeatedly proposed to be done in that way.

Once Oxford was done it would be a minor re-jig to the feed if that was not desirable any longer.

 

[A0]

Run them with what they’ve got. When WMR took over we had 136 diesel vehicles. (150/153/170/172). Once the 170’s have gone & the 196’s are in service along with the 172/0 & 172/1’s we will have 173 vehicles,less 12 vehicles to EWR that still leaves 161. Plus 25 vehicles. Allows for a full pre Covid service to be reinstated plus strengthening & Camp Hill services.

And not forgetting any replacement of 150s with 17xs or 196s will increase capacity because the 150s are 20m and the others are 23m.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2022 ==

Is there a technical reason (not political) it couldn't just be wired by connecting it to the WCML wires at Bletchley? It's not that far, and Windermere is repeatedly proposed to be done in that way.

Once Oxford was done it would be a minor re-jig to the feed if that was not desirable any longer.

Not really comparable - Windermere is 10 miles from Oxenholme and is a single track branch line.

Oxford is about 30 miles from Bletchley and EWR will be a double track railway - I'd have thought that alone would be enough of a difference, but I'm sure one of the posters who knows more about the technicalities of OHL installation can advise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I'd be interested to know is if those 6 units include any sort of spare, or if it'll just be three diagrams of double units with any spare needing to come down from Tyseley. If the latter, expect a lot of short formations - that arrangement was very bad for the Marston Vale indeed.

 

[swt_passenger]

As to the name more widely you pays your money and takes your choice: It doesn't appear there was a Denbigh Hall as such but there was a Denbigh Hall inn on Watling Street ( assume a coaching inn - although we had the premier ones in Fenny Stratford ) which changed its name after the Earl (?) of Denbigh stayed there on a trip to London. The inn was somewhere in the vicinity of the bridge that crosses Watling Street, where the station was situated!

There was also a Denbigh Farm in the area and the suggestion is farm land was taken to build the line. The third option is that this farm was actually Denbigh Hall and the stories kind of got mixed up and the hall and the farm and the inn are all the same place!

The NLS maps 25” 1892-1914 has three locations showing, south to north there’s a Denbigh Hall, and Denbigh Hall PH, and a Denbigh Hall Farm over to the west:

Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

 

[Mordac]

Run them with what they’ve got. When WMR took over we had 136 diesel vehicles. (150/153/170/172). Once the 170’s have gone & the 196’s are in service along with the 172/0 & 172/1’s we will have 173 vehicles,less 12 vehicles to EWR that still leaves 161. Plus 25 vehicles. Allows for a full pre Covid service to be reinstated plus strengthening & Camp Hill services.

So why did they order so many DMUs? It wasn't known at the time that the 196s were going to go to EWR, was it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So why did they order so many DMUs? It wasn't known at the time that the 196s were going to go to EWR, was it?

Because before people started getting the sniffles en masse, it was felt they'd need a growth build?

 

[Mikey C]

Think the last 6 2 car 196’s will be the ones on loan to EWR based at Bletchley. They will be used on Oxford - Milton Keynes services until the rest of the line through to
Cambridge is open. When the complete line opens they will be replaced by new hybrid/low emissions units. The 196’s will then return to WMR.

Cambridge is years/decades away though.

From a localised air quality point of view, it can be argued that for the first few years EWR mainly runs through open countryside, and that removing DMUs from the West Midlands might be more beneficial!

 

[centraltrains]

Have WMR committed to keep the Shrewsbury-Birmingham line 1tph long term now (as per some removals from May)? Is this where the capacity is coming from?
(I believe it had gone up to 2tph just before covid (although one ran only 10 minutes behind the other in one direction so was arguably a bit pointless...))


Plans seem to have changed a lot since the original Government announcement regarding Snow Hill Line (I hope one day it becomes a 6 coach railway).

More seats for rail passengers as nearly £1 billion is invested in Midlands services

Better trains, services and stations for passengers travelling between the north-west, the Midlands and London.

www.gov.uk

This includes investment in 100 new carriages on the Cross City line and 80 new carriages for the Snow Hill line, offering longer and more spacious services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cambridge is years/decades away though.

From a localised air quality point of view, it can be argued that for the first few years EWR mainly runs through open countryside, and that removing DMUs from the West Midlands might be more beneficial!

True. The curious shape of Oxford even means it won't spend much time running through an urban area at that side either, and through MK it runs mostly alongside a main road anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2022 ==

Have WMR committed to keep the Shrewsbury-Birmingham line 1tph long term now (as per some removals from May)? Is this where the capacity is coming from?
(I believe it has gone up to 2tph just before covid (although one ran only 10 minutes behind the other in one direction so was arguably a bit pointless...))

There have long been two - one WMT local and one TfW semifast. Are we talking a third?

As for Snow Hill, it needs the wires. It's basically a diesel Merseyrail, and that's silly.

 

[centraltrains]

There have long been two - one WMT local and one TfW semifast. Are we talking a third?

Yeah, there was a 2nd WMR service added (semifast too, but a few more stops than ATW/TfW iirc), mentioned in the same announcement.

• more trains between Birmingham and Shrewsbury with 2 services per hour from December 2018

 

[Wyrleybart]

True. The curious shape of Oxford even means it won't spend much time running through an urban area at that side either, and through MK it runs mostly alongside a main road anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2022 ==



There have long been two - one WMT local and one TfW semifast. Are we talking a third?

As for Snow Hill, it needs the wires. It's basically a diesel Merseyrail, and that's silly.

There are a good many intensive suburban and interurban operations that should be electrified. The 12 tph XC service through Water Orton as a example, but most city stations can boast similar. The problem is that whilst there are many trains through Snow Hill they end up at Stratford, Leamington and Worcester. There is however no problem with making a start and progressing in stages. The class 172 replacements could be electric by then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that whilst there are many trains through Snow Hill they end up at Stratford, Leamington and Worcester

This is true, but some Merseyrail Wirral Line trains end up at Chester and Ellesmere Port, which are almost as far from Liverpool as those are from Birmingham.

If it has to be done in stages, and I can see why it might, then batteries would I guess bridge the gap a bit.

 

[Falcon1200]

As I recall from earlier threads, part of the reason for not electrifying at this point is Oxford wiring and re-signalling also needs to happen

Oxford was resignalled just a few years ago, surely it will not need to be done again ?!! Although the new Platform 5, if and when it ever gets built, will of course need signalling additions. I know the station remodelling has, pathetically in my opinion, been put forward as a reason for deferring electrification from Didcot, but wiring EWR into Platforms 1 and 2, with passive provision for future additional OLE, would not seem to me a major obstacle ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Oxford was resignalled just a few years ago, surely it will not need to be done again ?!! Although the new Platform 5, if and when it ever gets built, will of course need signalling additions. I know the station remodelling has, pathetically in my opinion, been put forward as a reason for deferring electrification from Didcot, but wiring EWR into Platforms 1 and 2, with passive provision for future additional OLE, would not seem to me a major obstacle ?

AIUI the last re-signalling already allowed for P5. There was a NR presentation about it way back about 2014 showing all the incremental changes to bring P5 into use. A poster in a recent discussion in another forum reckoned some route indicators already allow for P5, and the signal positions already allow for a couple of replacement faster crossovers. The major work is the bridge alterations at both ends of the station.

 

[Falcon1200]

AIUI the last re-signalling already allowed for P5.

That makes sense, thanks.

The major work is the bridge alterations at both ends of the station.

And demolishing the not-that-old Youth Hostel ! How was that even allowed to be built there ?

 

[The Planner]

That makes sense, thanks.



And demolishing the not-that-old Youth Hostel ! How was that even allowed to be built there ?

22 years old. Oxford wouldn't have had this plan back then, people were likely still considering Oxpens.

 

[Falcon1200]

22 years old. Oxford wouldn't have had this plan back then, people were likely still considering Oxpens.

Thanks. It seems there have been more plans for improving Oxford station than I've had hot dinners, not to mention actually rebuilding it twice in the last 50 odd years. I'm beginning to doubt I will ever see Platform 5, or electrically powered trains at Oxford.... and I'm only 62 !

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks. It seems there have been more plans for improving Oxford station than I've had hot dinners, not to mention actually rebuilding it twice in the last 50 odd years. I'm beginning to doubt I will ever see Platform 5, or electrically powered trains at Oxford.... and I'm only 62 !

The design and enabling works contract for P5 etc has just been awarded to Kier Group just this month, I think it might really happen in the next year or two.

Construction and infrastructure services firm Kier Group has secured a contract from Network Rail for the next stage of a £65m modernisation project at Oxford railway station in the UK.

Under the contract, detailed design and enabling works will be carried out by Kier at Oxford railway station under the Oxford Corridor Phase 2 Project.

Kier received the contract to ‘take Phase 2C and 2D of the project through Governance for Railway Investment Projects (GRIP) Stage 5 ahead of the final funding decision by the Department for Transport’, anticipated in the coming months.

Kier wins Oxford railway station upgrade contract in UK

Kier Group has secured a contract from Network Rail for the next stage of a £65m modernisation project at Oxford railway station in the UK.

www.railway-technology.com

 

[Falcon1200]

I think it might really happen in the next year or two.

Excellent news, thanks; I might get to see it !

 

[Cantab26]

but wiring EWR into Platforms 1 and 2, with passive provision for future additional OLE, would not seem to me a major obstacle ?

There’s other stuff going on at the Oxford end which I am informed makes it more difficult than partial electrification of the station, no matter how superficially attractive it may seem.

You would almost be better electrifying between Bletchley and Oxford Parkway, then running on battery into Oxford station itself.

This is why EWR Co is looking into alternative traction options to see if you can get most of the benefits of electrification without having to grasp all of the nettles at the same time.

 

[43096]

This is why EWR Co is looking into alternative traction options to see if you can get most of the benefits of electrification without having to grasp all of the nettles at the same time.

Can I suggest fudge as the alternative traction option? Because that’s what it is.

 

[Cantab26]

Or we could of course let the perfect be the enemy of the good and have no new railway and no new services…