East-West Rail (EWR): what service (frequency, train type/length) should be provided?

[Wyrleybart]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...xford-bletchley-construction-progress.216561/

Perhaps, but in the lifetime of the station building the town is expected to grow to rather a lot more than 5,000 people. It's also presumably expected to take a reasonable amount of Buckingham and Aylesbury railheading.

I agree. As the population of the UK is ever expanding, more people will be living in the Shire counties in future. It is funny really, when went to school well over 40 years ago we were told that the UK population would shrink below 55 million people, if the truth is known it is nearer 65 million now and increasing every week as rubber boats arrive on Kent beaches.

It just beggars belief that the Government feel two car DMUs are all that is necessary to start the service off.

 

[richieb1971]

It just beggars belief that the Government feel two car DMUs are all that is necessary to start the service off.

According to previous posts the platforms are suitable for 4 car units at 106m. East west routes are mostly operated by shorter trains like that used from Birmingham to Stansted.

 

[swt_passenger]

According to the internet the platforms are suitable for 4 car units. East west routes are mostly operated by small trains.

Also according to all the scheme drawings as has possibly been noted earlier in this thread.

 

[fishwomp]

According to the internet the platforms are suitable for 4 car units. East west routes are mostly operated by small trains.

Cardiff-London?

I think you really mean, any route that is not traditional Cross-Country route or not a London service (either intercity or commuter) is mostly small trains.

 

[zwk500]

According to the internet the platforms are suitable for 4 car units.

Slightly more officially, the Appendices to the consultation say

5.9.1. There shall be a provision for 106m operational length at all station platforms within the TSS (at the point in which entry into service occurs for each configuration state) adequate to accommodate 4-car (4 x 24m) rolling stock.
5.9.2. All new station platforms shall provide positive passive provision for 202m operational length.
5.9.3. Platform lengths at Oxford, Milton Keynes, Bedford, (Cambridge South), Cambridge and on the East Coast Main Line (ECML) will be defined based on the future train service requirements as confirmed by the Department for Transport (DfT).

And also has:

5.12.2. Rolling stock shall be a maximum of 24 metres per vehicle.
5.12.3. The rolling stock for CS1, CS2 (and CO2.5) shall comprise of sufficient 3-car selfpowered trains operating to the CS1, CS2 and CO2.5 train service specification.

CS1 is Oxford-MK, CS2 is Oxford-Bedford, CO2.5 is Aylesbury-MK (CS = Configuration state i.e. confirmed, CO = Configuration Option i.e. potential future state, so Aylesbury is NOT in the plan for now).

https://eastwestrail-production.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/public/EAS060_TechDoc_Appendix_Master_DIG-1.pdf

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I agree. As the population of the UK is ever expanding, more people will be living in the Shire counties in future. It is funny really, when went to school well over 40 years ago we were told that the UK population would shrink below 55 million people, if the truth is known it is nearer 65 million now and increasing every week as rubber boats arrive on Kent beaches.

It just beggars belief that the Government feel two car DMUs are all that is necessary to start the service off.

As the Met did 100 years ago build the line and the stations and the houses will come and come and come some more....

 

[vic-rijrode]

As the Met did 100 years ago build the line and the stations and the houses will come and come and come some more....

Sadly the houses didn't quite come at Quainton Road, Granborough Road, Winslow Road or indeed Verney Junction even though there was a Pullman Service from Verney Junction to Baker Street before WW1!

 

[Pinza-C55]

Sadly the houses didn't quite come at Quainton Road, Granborough Road, Winslow Road or indeed Verney Junction even though there was a Pullman Service from Verney Junction to Baker Street before WW1!

True but that was a 100 years ago. Things are very different now. When the rail links are open property prices will rise and there will be demand for new housing in the area.

 

[12LDA28C]

True but that was a 100 years ago. Things are very different now. When the rail links are open property prices will rise and there will be demand for new housing in the area.

Property prices in Winslow are already rising and have been for the last couple of years with the anticipation of the reinstatement of the railway. There is also a huge new housebuilding program underway in Aylesbury and to a lesser extent in the surrounding villages.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Property prices in Winslow are already rising and have been for the last couple of years with the anticipation of the reinstatement of the railway. There is also a huge new housebuilding program underway in Aylesbury and to a lesser extent in the surrounding villages.

Vale Parkway is not far off having gone from being in the middle of a field to being suburban! I do wonder if in due course Chiltern will extend all trains back to there.

 

[12LDA28C]

Vale Parkway is not far off having gone from being in the middle of a field to being suburban! I do wonder if in due course Chiltern will extend all trains back to there.

It's certainly getting busier and many Met line trains already start and finish there. With the reduction of daytime (off peak) trains via Amersham from the May timetable, AVP retains its hourly service to and from Marylebone with trains having a ten-minute turnround.

 

[zwk500]

Vale Parkway is not far off having gone from being in the middle of a field to being suburban! I do wonder if in due course Chiltern will extend all trains back to there.

Indeed, and it's making the decision not to run EWR trains to Aylesbury look fairly short-sighted. 2tph Marylebone-AVP and 1 or 2tph Aylesbury-MKC would be an enviable service for a town it's size

 

[Verulamius]

Indeed, and it's making the decision not to run EWR trains to Aylesbury look fairly short-sighted. 2tph Marylebone-AVP and 1 or 2tph Aylesbury-MKC would be an enviable service for a town it's size

How much capacity is there on the Bletchley to Milton Keynes section? Is there enough for 2 ex Oxford and 2 ex Aylesbury? If a North East curve is created that would bring additional pressure.

 

[lachlan]

How much capacity is there on the Bletchley to Milton Keynes section? Is there enough for 2 ex Oxford and 2 ex Aylesbury? If a North East curve is created that would bring additional pressure.

A north east curve to allow services from Milton Keynes to Cambridge? Or somewhere else?

 

[vic-rijrode]

True but that was a 100 years ago. Things are very different now. When the rail links are open property prices will rise and there will be demand for new housing in the area.

I was being somewhat facetious....

 

[The Planner]

How much capacity is there on the Bletchley to Milton Keynes section? Is there enough for 2 ex Oxford and 2 ex Aylesbury? If a North East curve is created that would bring additional pressure.

Not enough for that. It would need infrastructure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How much capacity is there on the Bletchley to Milton Keynes section? Is there enough for 2 ex Oxford and 2 ex Aylesbury? If a North East curve is created that would bring additional pressure.

The full west end EWR plan was I think 2 Oxford-MKC, 1 Aylesbury-MKC, 1 Oxford-Cambridge. Though you probably wouldn't be able to path the second Aylesbury into MKC, it'd have to terminate at Bletchley. The obvious thing to do with the Aylesbury EWR service would be to run MKC to Princes Risborough hourly as a through service, which would also provide connectivity to the Chiltern line itself.

The Aylesbury service would certainly be of great benefit to the local economy, e.g. in easing access to employment for the young people of both towns (there are buses, but the service is poor), and it does need to be reinstated once the HS2 works are done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2023 ==

It was long rumoured and officially announced last week.

It makes a lot of sense as they're the only major operator of DMUs in the area. Of course it'd be made easier if there was direct access to Aylesbury depot!

 

[12LDA28C]

Of course it'd be made easier if there was direct access to Aylesbury depot!

There will be once the line north of Quainton is reinstated, whenever that may be, although there are no plans to maintain the fleet at Aylesbury anyway, that'll be done at Tyseley.

 

[Falcon1200]

Property prices in Winslow are already rising and have been for the last couple of years with the anticipation of the reinstatement of the railway. There is also a huge new housebuilding program underway in Aylesbury and to a lesser extent in the surrounding villages.

Although it is not actually on EWR, and the branch from Verney Jc will probably not reopen, I was astonished by the size of Buckingham when I passed through on the X5 bus recently; Winslow might serve the town?

 

[zwk500]

Although it is not actually on EWR, and the branch from Verney Jc will probably not reopen, I was astonished by the size of Buckingham when I passed through on the X5 bus recently; Winslow might serve the town?

The branch into Buckingham itself has been built over, the nearest you'd get is the bypass so no it won't be reopening. If people are heading to MK or Oxford they may drive to Winslow, or get the bus, but if they're heading for London or points further afield I'd expect them to drive to MK itself tbh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although it is not actually on EWR, and the branch from Verney Jc will probably not reopen, I was astonished by the size of Buckingham when I passed through on the X5 bus recently; Winslow might serve the town?

My mate lives there (in that fairly big flats development you pass on the way in when you go down from Tesco) and normally drives to Bletchley (parking is a lot cheaper than MKC) or Bicester North or Aylesbury/Aylesbury Vale Parkway are also an option if you prefer Chiltern. Winslow would be secondary as it has no London service, and for Oxford you'd just take the X5 or drive to one of the park and ride sites, though some might use Winslow for that.

 

[Class 170101]

The obvious thing to do with the Aylesbury EWR service would be to run MKC to Princes Risborough hourly as a through service, which would also provide connectivity to the Chiltern line itself.

Except I think there was a report that said it couldn't be made to work due to too many constraints, mostly single line from Claydon to Princes Risborough (except Aylesbury Station) and matching paths on the WCML due to the number of services running on it between Bletchley and Milton Keynes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Excepot I think there was a report that said it couldn't be made to work due to too many constraints, mostly single line from Claydon to Princes Risborough (except Aylesbury Station) and matching paths on the WCML due to the number of services running on it between Bletchley and Milton Keynes.

Yes, the through running to or even beyond Princes Risborough was explicitly ruled out by DfT prior to the TWA inquiry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except I think there was a report that said it couldn't be made to work due to too many constraints, mostly single line from Claydon to Princes Risborough (except Aylesbury Station) and matching paths on the WCML due to the number of services running on it between Bletchley and Milton Keynes.

Might that no longer be the case now the branch is a shuttle, though? It can take an hourly service and isn't constrained by much else at that end as it runs into the bay at Risborough and Aylesbury has more platforms than it needs. I suppose you could end up with poor connections onto Chiltern, though.

 

[cle]

The full west end EWR plan was I think 2 Oxford-MKC, 1 Aylesbury-MKC, 1 Oxford-Cambridge. Though you probably wouldn't be able to path the second Aylesbury into MKC, it'd have to terminate at Bletchley. The obvious thing to do with the Aylesbury EWR service would be to run MKC to Princes Risborough hourly as a through service, which would also provide connectivity to the Chiltern line itself.

I do believe it was 2tph Oxford-Cambridge (+ 2tph Cambridge-Bletchley on top) - from the east end, as an end state. As well as 2tph Oxford-MKC.

Yes, the through running to or even beyond Princes Risborough was explicitly ruled out by DfT prior to the TWA inquiry.

Could this ever be revisited? It feels like strategically all of this could do so much more with a little more vision. Investment for the Risborough route, Marston - quite a few weak links. Even a north/west-facing bay at High Wycombe might be handy for the Bucks connection.

You have brand new, 100mph railway on the 'net new', albeit unwired, but then the legacy sections of the same network/project are completely neglected. Has to be an aspiration for better, eventually. It could feed OOC, it could reach Didcot/Reading and see longer distance services, same for up the WCML/MML... etc - could be a very useful railway.

 

[Wyrleybart]

According to previous posts the platforms are suitable for 4 car units at 106m. East west routes are mostly operated by shorter trains like that used from Birmingham to Stansted.

Of course, but AIUI the initial plan is for six 2 car class 196s subleased from WMR. Based on one of the six being on maintenance / exam that leaves five for traffic. That would be enough for two pairs and a single. How much of a service can be run between Oxford and Bletchley with two 4 car units, and the 2 car ?

I believe it is about 40 miles from Oxford to Bletchley, with maybe stops at Oxford Parkway and Winslow the journey time will almost certainly be more than 30 minutes so I am guessing there will initially be an hourly service each way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, but AIUI the initial plan is for six 2 car class 196s subleased from WMR. Based on one of the six being on maintenance / exam that leaves five for traffic. That would be enough for two pairs and a single. How much of a service can be run between Oxford and Bletchley with two 4 car units, and the 2 car ?

Running time is about half an hour to MKC, so three diagrams. I guess that probably means two 4 car diagrams and one 2, probably shouldn't be too hard to time those so the 2 isn't on any peak services (i.e. the diagrams are such that the two 4s leave both ends on the services departing closest to around 0800 and 1730). Though I do wonder if it'll end up being something else if Chiltern is going to operate it, as something already in their fleet (e.g. 170s which are near identical to 168s) would be easier if they can get them. And it is I suppose possible they'll just operate three pairs and swap the units round with Tyseley units for maintenance as the Marston Vale historically did, at the risk of short-forming in the event of a failure.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Running time is about half an hour to MKC, so three diagrams. I guess that probably means two 4 car diagrams and one 2, probably shouldn't be too hard to time those so the 2 isn't on any peak services (i.e. the diagrams are such that the two 4s leave both ends on the services departing closest to around 0800 and 1730). Though I do wonder if it'll end up being something else if Chiltern is going to operate it, as something already in their fleet (e.g. 170s which are near identical to 168s) would be easier if they can get them.

So are there Oxfords going through to MKC then ? I was under the impression it was the Aylesburys that would go to MKC and the Oxfords would turn round at Bletchley.

You are nearer to the action so you obviously be more clued up than I.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So are there Oxfords going through to MKC then ? I was under the impression it was the Aylesburys that would go to MKC and the Oxfords would turn round at Bletchley.

You are nearer to the action so you obviously be more clued up than I.

There were rumours the initial service may not get past Bletchley due to something or other, but the plan has always been Oxford/Aylesbury to MKC, Oxford to Cambridge and Cambridge to Bletchley (possibly or possibly not with a separate Bedford-Bletchley stopper), which is just based around which way the junctions all face.

There's really very little point bothering if it doesn't run to MKC.

 

[The Planner]

I do believe it was 2tph Oxford-Cambridge (+ 2tph Cambridge-Bletchley on top) - from the east end, as an end state. As well as 2tph Oxford-MKC.


Could this ever be revisited? It feels like strategically all of this could do so much more with a little more vision. Investment for the Risborough route, Marston - quite a few weak links. Even a north/west-facing bay at High Wycombe might be handy for the Bucks connection.

You have brand new, 100mph railway on the 'net new', albeit unwired, but then the legacy sections of the same network/project are completely neglected. Has to be an aspiration for better, eventually. It could feed OOC, it could reach Didcot/Reading and see longer distance services, same for up the WCML/MML... etc - could be a very useful railway.

Risborough to Aylesbury got binned off early as it wasnt required to deliver the service as the route was split at Aylesbury. Whilst trains may run through they would have a big dwell in the middle.

There were rumours the initial service may not get past Bletchley due to something or other, but the plan has always been Oxford/Aylesbury to MKC, Oxford to Cambridge and Cambridge to Bletchley (possibly or possibly not with a separate Bedford-Bletchley stopper), which is just based around which way the junctions all face.

There's really very little point bothering if it doesn't run to MKC.

Its going to MK