East-West Rail (EWR): should it be electrified?

[Class 170101]

Electrification of EWR is dependent on the electrification of the Southampton-Birmingham line so I think you can assume that this is not even under consideration at the moment.

Would be interesting to know whether Didcot to Oxford was needed in wiring terms to allow Oxford to Bletchley to work or whether Oxford to Bletchley could stand on its own - electrically speaking.

 

[zwk500]

Would be interesting to know whether Didcot to Oxford was needed in wiring terms to allow Oxford to Bletchley to work or whether Oxford to Bletchley could stand on its own - electrically speaking.

Oxford to Bletchley would be connected into the WCML electrification, so it wouldn't be an island.

 

[edwin_m]

Oxford to Bletchley would be connected into the WCML electrification, so it wouldn't be an island.

But is Oxford too far from Bletchley to be single end fed, particularly if the nearest feeder to Bletchley was to go out of service? With Didcot-Oxford electrification it could be fed from the Oxford end. Was there going to be a feeder in the Oxford area and if so was any work started on it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But is Oxford too far from Bletchley to be single end fed, particularly if the nearest feeder to Bletchley was to go out of service? With Didcot-Oxford electrification it could be fed from the Oxford end. Was there going to be a feeder in the Oxford area and if so was any work started on it?

I think the point was just that it wouldn't an be electrification island, and indeed it wouldn't, with wires at all of Cambridge, Bedford and Bletchley/MKC.

And yes, it should be electrified, as should all new openings that aren't just very short extensions of existing lines where the service would necessarily be diesel.

 

[The Planner]

I thought E-W was getting its own feeder originally? Around Steeple Claydon/Calvert?

 

[InTheEastMids]

I thought E-W was getting its own feeder originally? Around Steeple Claydon/Calvert?

Agree, where to get the power from - where would the grid supply point (GSP) be?
(For those new to this) NR generally connect directly to the 400kV electricity transmission system where it intersects the railway.

When GWR electrification at Oxford was canned, this means either
(i) build a new GSP for EWR (£££)
(ii) feed from WCML, the nearest GSP being South of Leighton Buzzard

Unless I've misremembered, the requirement for EWR DMUs was relatively short-term; circa 4 years, hence people were speculating about stock like 175s instead of new-build. This takes us to around 2027/8.

HS2 Phase 1 also opens around 2027/8. It will have a GSP west of Quainton, and will be quite close to EWR.

So my Speculative Idea is that EWR Oxford-Bletchley will be electrified around 2028, and power will be supplied from the HS2 connection.

It would significantly improve the business case for EWR electrification, if (part of) one of your big-ticket items is being paid for by HS2.

 

[Hardcastle]

What i dont understand is if the cant electrify to Bristol/Oxford how can they do anything else.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Agree, where to get the power from - where would the grid supply point (GSP) be?
(For those new to this) NR generally connect directly to the 400kV electricity transmission system where it intersects the railway.

When GWR electrification at Oxford was canned, this means either
(i) build a new GSP for EWR (£££)
(ii) feed from WCML, the nearest GSP being South of Leighton Buzzard

Unless I've misremembered, the requirement for EWR DMUs was relatively short-term; circa 4 years, hence people were speculating about stock like 175s instead of new-build. This takes us to around 2027/8.

HS2 Phase 1 also opens around 2027/8. It will have a GSP west of Quainton, and will be quite close to EWR.

So my Speculative Idea is that EWR Oxford-Bletchley will be electrified around 2028, and power will be supplied from the HS2 connection.

It would significantly improve the business case for EWR electrification, if (part of) one of your big-ticket items is being paid for by HS2.

But the real costs of line closures for weekend after weekend, or even midweek, in order to install the electrification infrastructure ??? Beggars belief why it cannot all be done in one hit, but I guess that the costs trump sensibilities.

 

[InTheEastMids]

But the real costs of line closures for weekend after weekend, or even midweek, in order to install the electrification infrastructure ??? Beggars belief why it cannot all be done in one hit, but I guess that the costs trump sensibilities.

Agreed. Even if the lack of grid supply is why electrification can't be switched on before 2027/8, it does feel that closures might be avoided by getting works like piling done during the construction phase.
Although, EWR is not the GWML, so the disruption costs of closure ought to be lower?

However, it's not a great PR message: "Remember that brand new railway we built 3 years ago? Yeah, we're gonna close it every weekend for more engineering works".

The other thought is that presumably online electrification of EWR is expected to be much less disruptive c.f. GWEP or MML electrification?
Speculating again, based purely on things I've read here & elsewhere, EWR feels like a very different proposition*.

- Civils should all be in good order; there isn't a Severn Tunnel or other electrification nightmare on the route
- No signaling or track alterations (West of Bletchley at least)
- Piling should be more straightforward (should know ground conditions and locations of buried services)

*Hoping genuine experts will bring better-informed views on this.

 

[Whistler40145]

But is Oxford too far from Bletchley to be single end fed, particularly if the nearest feeder to Bletchley was to go out of service? With Didcot-Oxford electrification it could be fed from the Oxford end. Was there going to be a feeder in the Oxford area and if so was any work started on it?

Is the nearest feed at Ledburn on the WCML?

 

[Elecman]

Is the nearest feed at Ledburn on the WCML?

Yes

 

[HSTEd]

Just sums up the modern railway really.

Penny wise and pound foolish, just like the decision not to use ETCS.

 

[Aictos]

Should it have been electrified from day one? yes, will it be considered for electrification at a later date? most certainly, will it actually be done? Probably no

The best thing the line could get is Stadler Bi Modes like Greater Anglia have for their local services and when the line does gets electrified then you can remove the diesel power packs so it's a fully electric MU.

 

[The Planner]

Just sums up the modern railway really.

Penny wise and pound foolish, just like the decision not to use ETCS.

ETCS was still being looked at as an overlay, it may have died since I last spoke to anyone about it though.

 

[BrianW]

Not sure if this is the best place for this- happy for Moderators to move:

East-West Rail | George Freeman MP - Member of Parliament for Mid Norfolk

I fully support Grant Shapps’ East West project to boost rail transport,

www.georgefreeman.co.uk

It shows a local MP's support for an East-West Rail 'innovation Express' ...

 

[camflyer]

Layla Moran MP calls for electrification between Oxford and Cambridge

East-West Rail 'must use electric trains' - Layla Moran MP

The East West rail project aims to connect Oxford and Cambridge by the end of the decade.

www.bbc.co.uk

Trouble is that EWR is more than just Oxford to Cambridge so if through services are to run to Ipswich and Norwich as promised then that will need bimodal trains.

 

[BrianW]

Layla Moran MP calls for electrification between Oxford and Cambridge

East-West Rail 'must use electric trains' - Layla Moran MP

The East West rail project aims to connect Oxford and Cambridge by the end of the decade.

www.bbc.co.uk

Trouble is that EWR is more than just Oxford to Cambridge so if through services are to run to Ipswich and Norwich as promised then that will need bimodal trains.

Big deal. So what. Lovely as Layla Moran's policies may be she's not in Government, yet. Ok, so the Chesham and Amersham byelection might be seen as a 'shot across the bows'. I sense she may be shooting at a susceptible target- there's a word for it. Government could make this promise tomorrow; it will mean nothing. EWR will make their announcements at a time of the government's choosing rather than a LibDem MP's, maybe around COP26? IIRC, EWR is a private enterprise; it will need to find it's place within or alongside GBR; that may become a more important factor.

 

[cle]

She's right though.

Ipswich and Norwich will have to be for another time. And Didcot to Oxford (+) is surely the table stakes here.

 

[Verulamius]

She's right though.

Ipswich and Norwich will have to be for another time. And Didcot to Oxford (+) is surely the table stakes here.

Cambridge to Ipswich should be electrified following a freight electrification scheme between Felixstowe and Nuneaton.

 

[camflyer]

Cambridge to Ipswich should be electrified following a freight electrification scheme between Felixstowe and Nuneaton.

Probably should be given unlimited money and resources but I suspect it's way down Network Rail's list of priorities for electrification and I can't see EWR wanting to pay for the work.

 

[cle]

Cambridge to Ipswich should be electrified following a freight electrification scheme between Felixstowe and Nuneaton.

Not to be too picky (but someone will do it) - that freight runs via Soham and Ely. But yes that should be electrified, for sure.

The Ipswich line comes in to the north of Cambridge and thus faces south (towards EWR - which may be another freight route in theory - but serious clearance issues west of Newmarket!)

 

[ac6000cw]

but serious clearance issues west of Newmarket!

There is the (reasonably short) tunnel east of Newmarket station, but where are the clearance issues west of Newmarket - the line to Cambridge has only a few overbridges that I can think of?

 

[fishwomp]

Big deal. So what. Lovely as Layla Moran's policies may be she's not in Government, yet. Ok, so the Chesham and Amersham byelection might be seen as a 'shot across the bows'. I sense she may be shooting at a susceptible target- there's a word for it. Government could make this promise tomorrow; it will mean nothing. EWR will make their announcements at a time of the government's choosing rather than a LibDem MP's, maybe around COP26? IIRC, EWR is a private enterprise; it will need to find it's place within or alongside GBR; that may become a more important factor.

Here's her view on freight trains, perhaps favours HGVs?

Ex Physics Teacher claims "children 'being shaken out of bed' by train noise"

A former Physics teacher is claiming that the noise from freight trains is shaking children out of their beds. CHILDREN are being 'shaken out of their beds in the middle of the night' because of noise from freight trains running through north Oxford, according to a city MP. Layla Moran asked...

www.railforums.co.uk

I've listened to her enough times on local TV and I find her quite ill informed. I'm rather grateful she's a lib-dem MP and no longer a teacher, where she actually had the ability to influence the future for some.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2021 ==

She's right though.

Ipswich and Norwich will have to be for another time. And Didcot to Oxford (+) is surely the table stakes here.

Stopped clock is right twice a day!

Sometimes a bird in the hand is the best policy.. We don't yet have full funding, nor even a confirmed route, for east of Bedford. Start adding electrification costs in there now, and the bill goes up - making it easier to say 'no' to the whole thing. Ask for money now, come back later for the next slice, is unfortunately probably the wiser move today.

 

[david1212]

But the real costs of line closures for weekend after weekend, or even midweek, in order to install the electrification infrastructure ??? Beggars belief why it cannot all be done in one hit, but I guess that the costs trump sensibilities.

Just sums up the modern railway really.

Penny wise and pound foolish ....

Exactly given that by 2040 the plan is to can eliminate diesel-only passenger trains.

Despite the GWML electrification costs skyrocketing and the delays omitting Didcot - Oxford will be costly when eventually added.

Southampton - Basingstoke is difficult given the need to somehow either have both 25kV overhead and 750V third rail or eliminate the third rail with dual voltage stock.

 

[HSTEd]

Southampton - Basingstoke is difficult given the need to somehow either have both 25kV overhead and 750V third rail or eliminate the third rail with dual voltage stock.

Why would it be necessary to do these things?

Surely you can just use the third rail and dual voltage stock rather than messing around with reelectrification or multiple electrification systems?

 

[RobShipway]

Southampton - Basingstoke is difficult given the need to somehow either have both 25kV overhead and 750V third rail or eliminate the third rail with dual voltage stock.

Nearly all the third rail stock is such that a pantograph can be added to them. So it maybe a case that trains that have travelled down from Waterloo changeover to OLE at Basingstoke and change back to 3rd rail at Brockenhurst.

 

[BrianW]

Here's her view on freight trains, perhaps favours HGVs?

Ex Physics Teacher claims "children 'being shaken out of bed' by train noise"

A former Physics teacher is claiming that the noise from freight trains is shaking children out of their beds. CHILDREN are being 'shaken out of their beds in the middle of the night' because of noise from freight trains running through north Oxford, according to a city MP. Layla Moran asked...

www.railforums.co.uk

I've listened to her enough times on local TV and I find her quite ill informed. I'm rather grateful she's a lib-dem MP and no longer a teacher, where she actually had the ability to influence the future for some.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2021 ==


Stopped clock is right twice a day!

Sometimes a bird in the hand is the best policy.. We don't yet have full funding, nor even a confirmed route, for east of Bedford. Start adding electrification costs in there now, and the bill goes up - making it easier to say 'no' to the whole thing. Ask for money now, come back later for the next slice, is unfortunately probably the wiser move today.

Exactly given that by 2040 the plan is to can eliminate diesel-only passenger trains.

Despite the GWML electrification costs skyrocketing and the delays omitting Didcot - Oxford will be costly when eventually added.

Southampton - Basingstoke is difficult given the need to somehow either have both 25kV overhead and 750V third rail or eliminate the third rail with dual voltage stock.

IIUC EWR is a private company so determines its own investment priorities and timescales (subject to market-related pressures).
Even if we had 'one railway' (eg BR, GBR?) there would be competitive calls on limited resources, eg finance, electrification teams.
There would be regions, sectors, whatever competing and each thrown a big enough bone (or cut) for some semblance of fairness.
There will never be total agreement on priorities; aspirations always exceed available resources.
I'm with Fishwomp on this- bird in the hand.
And with david1212 re false economy in 'the long run', but if money had not been wasted in starting too soon being so pleased to have funding open up so without proper site investigations ...
I would never have expected the dumping of the East-West Expressway, so good for EWR to make hay just now- they are trying. Hope there are no bats on the way. (Reminder bats in Wolvercote tunnel delayed Oxford- Marylebone by years)

 

[Ianno87]

Exactly given that by 2040 the plan is to can eliminate diesel-only passenger trains.

Despite the GWML electrification costs skyrocketing and the delays omitting Didcot - Oxford will be costly when eventually added.

Southampton - Basingstoke is difficult given the need to somehow either have both 25kV overhead and 750V third rail or eliminate the third rail with dual voltage stock.

The saving grace woul be if EWR at the very minimum has passive provision for electrification. So disruption for bridge replacements etc can be avoided, an it is literally just a case of possessions to erect the caternary etc. So the cost deferred until a later date isn't "disproportionate". Personally, I'd rather see a diesel railway than no railway at all (which I think is the harsh reality of the choice).

Although on the flip side - the Oxford-Bedford section is relatively small potato in de-carbonisation terms; it's not that many DMU sets just for that bit. There are much bigger de-carbonisation prizes across the network (e.g. CrossCountry).

 

[JamesT]

The saving grace woul be if EWR at the very minimum has passive provision for electrification. So disruption for bridge replacements etc can be avoided, an it is literally just a case of possessions to erect the caternary etc. So the cost deferred until a later date isn't "disproportionate". Personally, I'd rather see a diesel railway than no railway at all (which I think is the harsh reality of the choice).

Although on the flip side - the Oxford-Bedford section is relatively small potato in de-carbonisation terms; it's not that many DMU sets just for that bit. There are much bigger de-carbonisation prizes across the network (e.g. CrossCountry).

My understanding is that's exactly the spec for EWR at the moment, passive provision for electrification - https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...rm-fleet-ahead-of-possible-new-electric-fleet

 

[swt_passenger]

My understanding is that's exactly the spec for EWR at the moment, passive provision for electrification - https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...rm-fleet-ahead-of-possible-new-electric-fleet

New structures on the Bicester to Bletchley section definitely allow for wires, at least according to the drawings provided in the TWA order paperwork. I posted an example in the EWR construction thread a little while ago:

East-West Rail (EWR): Oxford-Bletchley construction progress

Aren't there three Stockley flyovers? The original one, the new one immediately north of the old one, and the other new one a bit further east. Maybe the third has a different name. The first and third are box-type, as is the proposed flyover at Ravensthorpe on the Huddersfield-Westtown...

www.railforums.co.uk