East-West Rail (EWR) countdown to entry into service

[williamn]

probably a stupid question but why was a service not ready to go on completion of the line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

probably a stupid question but why was a service not ready to go on completion of the line?

It appears they're having a debate about DOO (again).

At present I'm starting to predict a delay of another 6 months or so while they fit guard panels to the units (if they don't already have them) and recruit and train some guards...

 

[Carlisle]

Isn’t a lot due to union disagreements with how trains/crews operate?

Quite possibly but presumably all drivers at the new depot were advised & accepted the likley method of operation when applying for the job.

 

[williamn]

It appears they're having a debate about DOO (again).

At present I'm starting to predict a delay of another 6 months or so while they fit guard panels to the units (if they don't already have them) and recruit and train some guards...

But why wasn’t this all sorted out before the line was finished? It feels like the fact the line was ready has taken everyone by surprise!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite possibly but presumably all drivers at the new depot accepted the likley method of operation when applying for the job.

The new drivers might have done, but because it's Chiltern there is I guess the risk of wider industrial action, and "no more DOO" is the policy of basically all the Unions. That said they didn't strike over Bicester-Oxford.

But why wasn’t this all sorted out before the line was finished? It feels like the fact the line was ready has taken everyone by surprise!

Goodness knows.

 

[PLY2AYS]

At present I'm starting to predict a delay of another 6 months or so while they fit guard panels to the units (if they don't already have them) and recruit and train some guards...

Guard panels are already fitted as I understand it. Hence why the body side cameras have never been operational or tested for function.
There is a rumour that they’ve never been functional at all… but that’s speculation.

The new drivers might have done, but because it's Chiltern there is I guess the risk of wider industrial action, and "no more DOO" is the policy of basically all the Unions. That said they didn't strike over Bicester-Oxford.

It isn’t just Chiltern; I’m pretty sure West Mids staff are pretty protective of their jobs and don’t want to see DOO extended to Bletchley or MK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn’t just Chiltern; I’m pretty sure West Mids staff are pretty protective of their jobs and don’t want to see DOO extended to Bletchley or MK.

I'm sure they don't, but as they are not in dispute with Chiltern (who are not their employer) they couldn't strike.

 

[PLY2AYS]

I'm sure they don't, but as they are not in dispute with Chiltern (who are not their employer) they couldn't strike.

To clarify, it isn’t their drivers who are opposed, although I’d imagine they’d stand in solidarity with the rest of the depot if they could.

 

[JonathanH]

It isn’t just Chiltern; I’m pretty sure West Mids staff are pretty protective of their jobs and don’t want to see DOO extended to Bletchley or MK.

Is Bletchley High Level a separate station from Bletchley from the point of view of DOO(P) authorisation?

 

[PLY2AYS]

Is Bletchley High Level a separate station from Bletchley from the point of view of DOO(P) authorisation?

You’d think so, but EW isn’t going to just Bletchley.
Does anyone know if there’s an issue of storing 196s at Bletchley TMD?

 

[dk1]

Quite possibly but presumably all drivers at the new depot were advised & accepted the likley method of operation when applying for the job.

That’s not usually how it works.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2025 ==

To clarify, it isn’t their drivers who are opposed, although I’d imagine they’d stand in solidarity with the rest of the depot if they could.

Thank you. Yes I’d imagine there would always be solidarity with their colleagues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you. Yes I’d imagine there would always be solidarity with their colleagues.

WMT staff and Chiltern staff are not "colleagues" in the sense that would permit a solidarity strike. They might be on the same site but Chiltern's Bletchley traincrew depot is a separate legal entity to WMT's. Thus what WMT staff think is irrelevant; they have no grievance against their employer. If they asked for a commitment to no DOO for as long as the WMT franchise exists (a couple of months) I suspect that would be willingly given because there is no plan to introduce it to WMT.

Chiltern staff at other depots could strike, however, on the grounds of the threat of expanded DOO on Chiltern. However it is odd that they didn't over Oxford.

 

[PLY2AYS]

WMT staff and Chiltern staff are not "colleagues" in the sense that would permit a solidarity strike. They might be on the same site but Chiltern's Bletchley traincrew depot is a separate legal entity to WMT's. Thus what WMT staff think is irrelevant; they have no grievance against their employer. If they asked for a commitment to no DOO for as long as the WMT franchise exists (a couple of months) I suspect that would be willingly given because there is no plan to introduce it to WMT.

Chiltern staff at other depots could strike, however, on the grounds of the threat of expanded DOO on Chiltern. However it is odd that they didn't over Oxford.

Oxford and therefore GWR, already have some DOO agreements in place, as well as traction and existing infrastructure capable of DOO operation.

Considering the traction is leased from West Mids to Chiltern, and it is a new introduction of method of working to their depot, which would need to be agreed at a local level, I’d imagine Bletchley/MK and the TMD might have cause for grievance.

 

[zwk500]

Chiltern staff at other depots could strike, however, on the grounds of the threat of expanded DOO on Chiltern. However it is odd that they didn't over Oxford.

Was the industrial relationship ever so slightly more constructive when the expansion to Oxford happened?

 

[Hughby]

Perhaps it's time to change the title of the thread as countdown implies progress.

 

[Mainsideman]

Chiltern staff at other depots could strike, however, on the grounds of the threat of expanded DOO on Chiltern. However it is odd that they didn't over Oxford.

I think its unlikely chiltern staff will strike, if they intended to remove Train Managers from current services then it would be a different story. In fact chiltern will need more Train Managers for the uplift in Mk5 services.

 

[150219]

Does anyone know if there’s an issue of storing 196s at Bletchley TMD?

Yes, I do know and no, there isn't.

 

[dk1]

WMT staff and Chiltern staff are not "colleagues" in the sense that would permit a solidarity strike. They might be on the same site but Chiltern's Bletchley traincrew depot is a separate legal entity to WMT's. Thus what WMT staff think is irrelevant; they have no grievance against their employer. If they asked for a commitment to no DOO for as long as the WMT franchise exists (a couple of months) I suspect that would be willingly given because there is no plan to introduce it to WMT.

Chiltern staff at other depots could strike, however, on the grounds of the threat of expanded DOO on Chiltern. However it is odd that they didn't over Oxford.

Yes all my years in ASLEF the policy was not to permit any further extension of DOO on the National Network.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I suspect the Oxford argument was weakened by Oxford - Bicester Town (as was) being DOO under GWR (I believe) before it was transferred to Chiltern ahead of the upgrade work.

 

[alf]

Yes all my years in ASLEF the policy was not to permit any further extension of DOO on the National Network.

Despite the ASLEF policy correctly quoted above by dk1 Thameslink extended DOO operation to Rainham in Kent.
And Thameslink are able to operate to East Grinstead & Horsham with DOO rather than Southern’s DOO plus OBS.
The Elizabeth line, a new route like Bicester to Milton Keynes, is operated as DOO despite the ASLEF embargo.
London overground runs DOO on former Silverlink routes that had guards & there was no dispute although nationally ASLEF were opposed.
So there is precedent for DOO on Chiltern South. although there is also recent powerful precedent in Labour’ awarding ASLEF what they want.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Yes all my years in ASLEF the policy was not to permit any further extension of DOO on the National Network.

Whilst I understand the sentiment and the reasons for it, a blanket policy on this topic is as unreasonable as the ORRs blanket policy to block any extension of the third rail network, even to extremis of requiring alternative traction trains to be developed. For something new build, both DOO and 3rd rail can be done perfectly safely if it is designed in properly and risks mitigated.

One could say, that DfT missed a trick with EWR, by not proactively engaging with ASLEF from day 1 and essentially using it as a demonstration of how to design a completely safe and effective DOO railway that is acceptable to the union, as a template for future designs.

 

[dk1]

Whilst I understand the sentiment and the reasons for it, a blanket policy on this topic is as unreasonable as the ORRs blanket policy to block any extension of the third rail network, even to extremis of requiring alternative traction trains to be developed. For something new build, both DOO and 3rd rail can be done perfectly safely if it is designed in properly and risks mitigated.

One could say, that DfT missed a trick with EWR, by not proactively engaging with ASLEF from day 1 and essentially using it as a demonstration of how to design a completely safe and effective DOO railway that is acceptable to the union, as a template for future designs.

From what I have always understood, it wasn’t up for discussion with ASLEF.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

From what I have always understood, it wasn’t up for discussion with ASLEF.

Does that mean ASLEF wouldn’t entertain the discussion, or DfT didn’t try?

 

[dk1]

Does that mean ASLEF wouldn’t entertain the discussion, or DfT didn’t try?

Just that if it is going to involve extension of DOO on the network then there’s no point. That’s how I have always understood it.

 

[fishwomp]

Whilst I understand the sentiment and the reasons for it, a blanket policy on this topic is as unreasonable as the ORRs blanket policy to block any extension of the third rail network, even to extremis of requiring alternative traction trains to be developed. For something new build, both DOO and 3rd rail can be done perfectly safely if it is designed in properly and risks mitigated.

One could say, that DfT missed a trick with EWR, by not proactively engaging with ASLEF from day 1 and essentially using it as a demonstration of how to design a completely safe and effective DOO railway that is acceptable to the union, as a template for future designs.

The genius of this whole situation is that by delaying the opening of EWR this dispute just pushes back the political and societal driver for the rest of this reopening. That pushes back the opportunity for new railway jobs - new memberships for ASLEF.. new memberships for RMT. Playing a very short term game.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Just that if it is going to involve extension of DOO on the network then there’s no point. That’s how I have always understood it.

So yet another entrenched ideological position, not up for any rational discussion. Great.

 

[PLY2AYS]

So yet another entrenched ideological position, not up for any rational discussion. Great.

Fail to see how; acquiring trains not fit for DOO, failing to install DOO equipment and not consulting the workforce expected to work it, is a failure of the union in this instance.

 

[fishwomp]

Fail to see how; acquiring trains not fit for DOO, failing to install DOO equipment and not consulting the workforce expected to work it, is a failure of the union in this instance.

To be honest, we're not seeing enough explanations for what's going on - and forum members have been trying to find out from their MPs what the story is. The union would be a convenient scapegoat, but a bit of honesty would/could help deflect where that's unfair.

According to Modern Railways (published ~20th September - am just reading now):

''delayed by a concatenation of screw-ups over selecting the operator for the line, rolling stock, driver training (only 12 to date), and the current dispute over driver-only operation.

Clearly the operator was announced late, and rolling stock was (covered in Private Eye) procured (and therefore being paid for) before being ready to take it, so - I guess the latter two issues remain..

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Fail to see how; acquiring trains not fit for DOO, failing to install DOO equipment and not consulting the workforce expected to work it, is a failure of the union in this instance.

The point I was making is that it is the DfTs failure to see this as a positive opportunity to engage on DOO as a concept for the future - I agree acquiring unsuitable trains etc is just more of the same short sightedness. My reaction re ideology was in response to @dk1 ‘s statement that the issue was not up for debate at all, which I took to mean regardless of even favourable circumstances.

 

[dk1]

The point I was making is that it is the DfTs failure to see this as a positive opportunity to engage on DOO as a concept for the future - I agree acquiring unsuitable trains etc is just more of the same short sightedness. My reaction re ideology was in response to @dk1 ‘s statement that the issue was not up for debate at all, which I took to mean regardless of even favourable circumstances.

Favourable industry circumstances mean very little compared to the protection of staffing when it comes to union priorities.