East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[Philip Phlopp]

Sorry, what are RTC's?

Road traffic collisions.

It sounds very odd, but accidents/incidents involving staff needed for a possession on the roads cause all manner of issues, either delaying the start of the possession, reducing what is done, or forcing the work to be postponed.

That's in addition to staff and equipment being delayed because of incidents on the road network. That can be a serious logistical headache if there's equipment on a low loader that has to take a specific route to site.

 

[The Planner]

Norton Bridge will open early if anything. Not sure how HS2 comes into this as it hasn't got royal assent so doesn't even have powers yet.

 

[edwin_m]

Deleted

 

[HowardGWR]

RTCs used to be called RTAs but then, correctly in my view, it was felt that hardly ever is there a true 'accident'.

 

[MML]

There does appear to be huge reliance on the timely delivery of an electric spine in the proposals. The much publicised delays and overspends in the GWR electrification, with knock on effects to the large MML and TPE programmes has the risk of pushing the delivery of an East-West Rail link into the proverbial long grass.

But while electrification as a long-term goal is desirable, is it essential to deliver the train service ? Indeed, couldn't an alternative solution deliver the passenger numbers and route growth potential which in the long-term would justify electrification.

There are 4 proposed services:
(a) hourly all-stations service between Bedford and Bletchley. This could probably be extended to MK. The existing Class 150 and 153 stock appears adequate, although it could be transferred to an expanded Chiltern franchise, with depot facilities at Bletchley. A Sunday service should be introduced.
(b) hourly Bedford to Oxford semi-fast service. Journey time 61 minutes.
(c) hourly MK to Oxford semi-fast service. Journey time 41 minutes.
With the GOBLIN route electrification scheduled to be completed in 2017, this should release up to 8 x two-car Class 172/0 units. This could provide sufficient stock to operate (b) and (c) above.
(d) hourly MK to Marylebone semi-fast service. There is already an hourly service from Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Parkway station, so units operating this should simply continue to MK. If additional DMU are required, then perhaps an additional LHS with MK3 coaches can be used on the Oxford or Birmingham services to release the additional DMU.

Now there will still be a need for infrastructure work before these services can be introduced but track, signalling and platform alterations should be much simpler and therefore be possible by 2019. Electrification can follow at a time when the logistics and funding become available.

 

[MarkRedon]

There does appear to be huge reliance on the timely delivery of an electric spin in the proposals. The much publicised delays and overspends in the GWR electrification, with knock on effects to the large MML and TPE programmes has the risk of pushing the delivery of an East-West Rail link into the proverbial long grass.

But while electrification as a long-term goal is desirable, is it essential to deliver the train service ? ...

Now there will still be a need for infrastructure work before these services can be introduced but track, signalling and platform alterations should be much simpler and therefore be possible by 2019. Electrification can follow at a time when the logistics and funding become available.

There may well be something in what you say. However, it is the Department for Transport who hold the purse strings and it seems that their ambitions for the East West Link are continuing to grow. Rail magazine is currently reporting http://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...siness-case-indicates-east-west-rail-benefits:

A 2012/13 report by Atkins showed that the ‘core scope’ with five trains an hour in each direction would cost £748 million, including electrification and an ‘optimism bias’ uplift.

However, the more strategic ‘incremental scope’ that the DfT has asked Network Rail to evaluate, and which would entail nine trains per hour and improved line speeds and track layout, is priced at £1.484 billion.

Some kind of phased delivery is practically inevitable. Phase 1 was the recently-delivered Oxford Parkway to Bicester together with the (we hope?) soon-to-be-completed Oxford to Oxford Parkway railway rebuilding, with passive provision for electrification. The current phase 2, the remainder of the Western section, would certainly lend itself to progressive implementation. Thus for example electrification between Bletchley and Bedford has already slipped into control period six at the earliest. The final route for the putative Central section which will link Bedford and Cambridge has not yet been decided. In any event, as new-build railway it will almost-certainly become ensnared in planning issues.

Some indication of developing thinking around phased delivery is provided at
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ail-delivery-could-be-delayed-by-seven-years:

Local authorities in the East West Rail consortium understand that plans to deliver a route between Oxford and Bedford could be pushed back for completion in 2022, resulting in the Aylesbury-Milton Keynes track sent to 2024 and enhancements to the Aylesbury-Princes Risborough line delayed until 2026.

However, it is much more expensive to enhance an intensively-used operational railway than it is to carry out work before the line is in full use. (There is of course already some use of the line to and from Calvert.) This is perhaps one of several reasons why the East West Rail Consortium themselves are strongly opposed to a late and piecemeal development and are hoping to influence government to make early and rapid progress.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are 4 proposed services:
(a) hourly all-stations service between Bedford and Bletchley. This could probably be extended to MK.

It is definitely not planned to extend that service to MK. Covered in numerous previous discussions.

(d) hourly MK to Marylebone semi-fast service. There is already an hourly service from Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Parkway station, so units operating this should simply continue to MK.

The published plans already confirm the intention to extend an existing DMU service from Marylebone. No need to suggest this.

 

[MML]

The published plans already confirm the intention to extend an existing DMU service from Marylebone. No need to suggest this.

Thanks swt_passenger. Does the existing DMU service from Marylebone have enough slack to operate north of Aylesbury Vale Parkway to MK without the requirement of additional units ? Or are additional DMU already in the pipeline in the form of Class 170 from TPE ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks swt_passenger. Does the existing DMU service from Marylebone have enough slack to operate north of Aylesbury Vale Parkway to MK without the requirement of additional units ? Or are additional DMU already in the pipeline in the form of Class 170 from TPE ?

I should think an Aylesbury-MKC service is now beyond the end of the current Chiltern franchise, or will be part of a new agreement.
I shouldn't think the rolling stock has been considered yet, with the line specification unknown.
TPE will have lost all their 170s by next year anyway.

 

[aylesbury]

Marylebone High Wycombe M/k services will be covered by existing stock used on the service to Aylesbury via Risboro.Local stakeholders are infuriated by the delay in completing the project to M/K ,Bedford is not a destination for local people Wycombe,Aylesbury,Oxford but M/K and the WCML is.Its time that the DFT realised that people in the Chilterns need good connectivity and quality trains.They should get the line up and running on the existing timeline and at some later date put the wires up,we need the trains now not in ten years time.

 

[The Planner]

Considering they spin at Aylesbury Vale Parkway in 10-15 minutes there isn't any slack. Based on what I hear on the grapevine about infrastructure and linespeed they will need to be 168s.

 

[edwin_m]

I thought it was agreed the Marylebone to MK service would run via High Wycombe? This is uncompetitive for end-to-end journeys, but these are not its purpose and the Wycombe route opens up a lot more potential for intermediate journeys.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought it was agreed the Marylebone to MK service would run via High Wycombe? This is uncompetitive for end-to-end journeys, but these are not its purpose and the Wycombe route opens up a lot more potential for intermediate journeys.

That's correct, as has been described on the EWR website for a few years now. I didn't bother going into detail, as the route taken 'south of Aylesbury Vale Parkway' doesn't really affect the principle point of extending an existing Chiltern service.

Running times are given on the EWR website for Aylesbury (presumably the main station) to Milton Keynes of 33 mins, so just under an hour there and back from AVP, so should be achievable with one extra unit in service, two at the most?

 

[edwin_m]

That's correct, as has been described on the EWR website for a few years now. I didn't bother going into detail, as the route taken 'south of Aylesbury Vale Parkway' doesn't really affect the principle point of extending an existing Chiltern service.

Running times are given on the EWR website for Aylesbury (presumably the main station) to Milton Keynes of 33 mins, so just under an hour there and back from AVP, so should be achievable with one extra unit in service, two at the most?

All the Aylesbury Vale Parkway trains run via Amersham at present so it isn't simply a question of extending one of these. I imagine it is actually extending the hourly Aylesbury to Marylebone via Wycombe service. This may result in Aylesbury Vale Parkway losing its service via Amersham to be served by the new train instead, and perhaps also some losses for the small stations between Princes Risborough and Aylesbury?

 

[cle]

Is Aylesbury to Winslow expected to be quite a fast stretch? 33 mins seems quick with two stops.

If Aylesbury to Princes Risborough is improved, and stopping patterns sped up between there and Marylebone, it doesn't have to be such a milk train.

I wonder if one day stations/stops could be added at Calvert and Quainton Road. It's sparsely populated but there could be a market for local journeys and peak commuting.

 

[geoffk]

Presumably trains will call at Quainton Road when the steam centre is open.

 

[swt_passenger]

All the Aylesbury Vale Parkway trains run via Amersham at present so it isn't simply a question of extending one of these. I imagine it is actually extending the hourly Aylesbury to Marylebone via Wycombe service. This may result in Aylesbury Vale Parkway losing its service via Amersham to be served by the new train instead, and perhaps also some losses for the small stations between Princes Risborough and Aylesbury?

It's also possible they would have two services at Aylesbury Vale Parkway, as it would get a new through platform (or platforms), and still have the existing platform. AIUI that is the reason for the current layout.

But there are also plans for more redoubling between Princes Risborough and Aylesbury to make the overall timings more robust. The Milton Keynes service could result in a number of knock on changes to Chiltern's timetable, but at the end of the day they'll have to alter whatever is necessary to allow the minimum number of units required to give the extra mileage.

 

[aylesbury]

The line from Parkway to Calvert will be doubled and another bridge will go in at Parkway the supports are already in place.Risboro to Aylesbury is not to be doubled or have a loop put in place.Evidently the idea is to up the speed to 100mph and send the trains through faster.as told to me at the roadshow by a man from NR (his words).It would have been good if Quainton had been scheduled for reopening as the catchment area is a good one and the platforms are there already.Hope this helps.

 

[paul1609]

It's also possible they would have two services at Aylesbury Vale Parkway, as it would get a new through platform (or platforms), and still have the existing platform. AIUI that is the reason for the current layout.

But there are also plans for more redoubling between Princes Risborough and Aylesbury to make the overall timings more robust. The Milton Keynes service could result in a number of knock on changes to Chiltern's timetable, but at the end of the day they'll have to alter whatever is necessary to allow the minimum number of units required to give the extra mileage.

Has this line ever been double track? I thought it had always been single albeit Broad Gauge early on.

 

[Class 170101]

Presumably trains will call at Quainton Road when the steam centre is open.

I haven't seen it mentioned however guven that there is a waste facility at Calvert is it worth considering a station here too?

 

[swt_passenger]

I haven't seen it mentioned however guven that there is a waste facility at Calvert is it worth considering a station here too?

A landfill site like that is operated by very few men, 21 according to their website. How can that possibly justify opening a station?

 

[The Planner]

Passive for a station at Quainton apparently (not at the railway centre and I would speculate that the railway centre could lose its platforms) and Steeple Claydon, nothing at Calvert from what I have heard.

 

[deltic]

I haven't seen it mentioned however guven that there is a waste facility at Calvert is it worth considering a station here too?

Isnt Calvert where the HS2 maintenance depot is going to be?

 

[Andyjs247]

A landfill site like that is operated by very few men, 21 according to their website. How can that possibly justify opening a station?

Passive for a station at Quainton apparently (not at the railway centre and I would speculate that the railway centre could lose its platforms) and Steeple Claydon, nothing at Calvert from what I have heard.

There's not much at Calvert or even the more recent Calvert Green development. Not enough population to justify a station plus the people that do live there will almost certainly drive or have access to a car. They would be better served by a station at nearby Steeple Claydon - which also has the advantage of being on both the main EWR and Aylesbury routes.

 

[edwin_m]

Isnt Calvert where the HS2 maintenance depot is going to be?

Yes, and probably used as a construction depot first. I did read something about a possible station on EWR but it was probably just wibble.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Passive for a station at Quainton apparently (not at the railway centre and I would speculate that the railway centre could lose its platforms)...

Surprised that Quainton is being considered, as Aylesbury Vale Parkway is only a few miles from the village.

 

[geoffk]

surely a stop at the Railway Centre during opening hours is a no-brainer.

 

[work-traveller]

Surprised that Quainton is being considered, as Aylesbury Vale Parkway is only a few miles from the village.

'Considered' and 'actually happening' aren't the same

 

[The Planner]

surely a stop at the Railway Centre during opening hours is a no-brainer.

In the odd train possibly, providing they can keep their platforms, every train? No.

 

[edwin_m]

surely a stop at the Railway Centre during opening hours is a no-brainer.

If the couple of minutes extra journey time means missing a path on the WCML north of Bletchley then probably not.