East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[jimm]

Why do they have to be the same width as those on the GWML? This is 100mph double track and will presumably be electrified in the same manner as the schemes in Scotland and the North West. With at least another 45 sitting by the chord hopefully all will become clear soon...

The ones linked to here do indeed look like electrification mast piles, but the things showing above the ground in those photographs of Gavray junction are not anything like the same diameter, are they? Nor do they look anything like the bases for GWML masts that can be seen here once the piling is completed. http://www.hondawanderer.com/66416_Circourt_2015.htm

If they are for electrification, great, but maybe just let's wait and see what, if anything, is fitted to the top of the one at the junction.

And it seems faintly odd that with the GW scheme struggling that anyone would have spent time planning work like this, never mind carrying it out.

 

[Andyjs247]

Thanks for the replies. The more piles/photos I've seen makes me think they are for electrification. Cliff Jones' photos from yesterday show at least 6 piles on the up side between Tubbs Lane and London Road.

For instance, further delaying TP electrification while keeping the East West dates would not go down well in the north.
TP was authorised first, and is further ahead in the GRIP timetable.

Maybe not, but at least TP and MML have a service running with diesel trains already. Which can presumably continue a bit longer as is, even if it does screw up plans to cascade the stock elsewhere. EWR is a completely new service and unless you can find some spare DMUs from somewhere (or build new DMUs) then it needs electrifying. And it's easier/cheaper to do so before trains start running.

A big part of the cost is providing the power supplies. I suspect EWR may not need any separate dedicated supply, depending on what is put in for HS2. There's a large grid substation at East Claydon and I wouldn't be surprised if that featured in plans to supply both HS2 and EWR. Plus EWR will plug into the already electrified WCML and newly electrified GWML system at Oxford. Pressing on with EWR electrification between Oxford-Bletchley would at least provide that W10/W12 freight link between the WCML and Southampton. So it makes sense when you see the bigger picture.

 

[richieb1971]

Darlo,

I learn as I go. I am here for education as well as asking questions.

If we have a shortage of labour/skills then the project shouldn't have been green lit.

 

[Chris125]

The ones linked to here do indeed look like electrification mast piles, but the things showing above the ground in those photographs of Gavray junction are not anything like the same diameter, are they?

They look exactly the same to me, and the mounting holes on top are clearly identical so I see no reason to think otherwise.

 

[richieb1971]

Why so much talk about the masts? Is there something happening on the ground that does not tally up with the project report?

Would it be a good guess to assume the orders for the masts were put in place before the government pulled the purse strings?

 

[swt_passenger]

Would it be a good guess to assume the orders for the masts were put in place before the government pulled the purse strings?

What makes you think that? For this particular project?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Why so much talk about the masts? Is there something happening on the ground that does not tally up with the project report?

Would it be a good guess to assume the orders for the masts were put in place before the government pulled the purse strings?

The Government have not pulled the purse strings - timescales have slipped resulting in costs escalating on a number of projects, most seriously (in both time slippage and cost) with the Great Western electrification scheme.

The overall funding package Network Rail agreed with ORR remains unchanged, but what looks likely to happen, though I don't want to preempt Sir Peter Hendy's report, is the funding for the MML electrification will cover increased costs on the GWML electrification, and in turn, in CP6, MML electrification may well take funds intended (at this early stage) for the Bristol to Derby via Birmingham electrification.

What's also apparent, is that there's not the plant and personnel to do everything Network Rail wanted in any case, so even if the money was made available to complete MML electrification, it would be difficult to complete - that's why we're hearing that East West Rail could well be set back by a year or two years - lack of electrification assets and personnel to complete the route.

 

[jimm]

They look exactly the same to me, and the mounting holes on top are clearly identical so I see no reason to think otherwise.

They are not the same, exactly or otherwise - just look at the ones laid down on their side at the chord line - the diameter is larger by a country mile, as they are the size being used on the GWML.

Both types pictured do indeed have mounting holes on the top but they are two different types of pile. End of story.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Government have not pulled the purse strings - timescales have slipped resulting in costs escalating on a number of projects, most seriously (in both time slippage and cost) with the Great Western electrification scheme.

The overall funding package Network Rail agreed with ORR remains unchanged, but what looks likely to happen, though I don't want to preempt Sir Peter Hendy's report, is the funding for the MML electrification will cover increased costs on the GWML electrification, and in turn, in CP6, MML electrification may well take funds intended (at this early stage) for the Bristol to Derby via Birmingham electrification.

What's also apparent, is that there's not the plant and personnel to do everything Network Rail wanted in any case, so even if the money was made available to complete MML electrification, it would be difficult to complete - that's why we're hearing that East West Rail could well be set back by a year or two years - lack of electrification assets and personnel to complete the route.

East West Rail is not yet at Grip 3 so construction (inc electrification) has not been approved, just development through the Grip programme.
It is in the box of frogs for CP5 that umpteen layers of management and consultants are currently reviewing, and who knows what will emerge.
You may well be right about how things will turn out, but the Treasury will not allow costs to escalate and just push the dates out.
There will be massive pressure on NR to descope the programme and get back to the CP5 number it first thought of.
The Bletchley Flyover is testament to how things turn out when you let construction get ahead of reality.

 

[The Planner]

Not sure how it can be de-scoped to be fair or it wouldn't meet the outputs. Doesn't help it is third party funded too so pressure from that side.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not sure how it can be de-scoped to be fair or it wouldn't meet the outputs. Doesn't help it is third party funded too so pressure from that side.

Yes I meant the overall CP5 project list rather than individual projects within it.

 

[Andyjs247]

They are not the same, exactly or otherwise - just look at the ones laid down on their side at the chord line - the diameter is larger by a country mile, as they are the size being used on the GWML.

Both types pictured do indeed have mounting holes on the top but they are two different types of pile. End of story.

Those piles on the GWML are on a 4 track section. They may be designed to support a 4-track portal or twin track cantilever, either of which need a bigger pile than your simple single track cantilever. It doesn't mean the ones on EWR are not for electrification.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Those piles on the GWML are on a 4 track section. They may be designed to support a 4-track portal or twin track cantilever, either of which need a bigger pile than your simple single track cantilever. It doesn't mean the ones on EWR are not for electrification.

There are many metal mast piles on the North West electrification, on twin-track routes.
They are exactly the same size as those on the GW project - ie big beefy things.
The ones in the Chris125 photo do look the part though.
If anyone can decode the inscription on them it might help, particularly the prefix and km.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There are many metal mast piles on the North West electrification, on twin-track routes.
They are exactly the same size as those on the GW project - ie big beefy things.
The ones in the Chris125 photo do look the part though.
If anyone can decode the inscription on them it might help, particularly the prefix and km.

They're single track cantilever electrification steel piles.

The Gavray Jn piles I can't envisage being for anything else, but there's something odd about and I can't quite place it. It's maybe just photo quality/depth/zoom playing tricks and there's nothing wrong at all.

 

[Andyjs247]

There are many metal mast piles on the North West electrification, on twin-track routes.
They are exactly the same size as those on the GW project - ie big beefy things.
The ones in the Chris125 photo do look the part though.
If anyone can decode the inscription on them it might help, particularly the prefix and km.

Yes, local geology and ground conditions will play a part too - I can imagine you'd need something a bit 'beefier' for Chat Moss or across the Fens for example. But that's not an issue here

They're single track cantilever electrification steel piles.

The Gavray Jn piles I can't envisage being for anything else, but there's something odd about and I can't quite place it. It's maybe just photo quality/depth/zoom playing tricks and there's nothing wrong at all.

Hmm, I guess all will become clear in time as its obviously work in progress. As yet there are piles mostly on the Up side without corresponding ones opposite. The default would be single track cantilevers so I imagine its what is being installed.

And the following update on the East West Rail website does confirm electrification is continuing as planned (although we don't really know what those plans/timescales are yet!)

Last week the Secretary of State for Transport announced that Peter Hendy, the newly-appointed chairman of Network Rail, has been asked to develop proposals for how the rail upgrade programme will be carried out. This includes enhancement schemes that are due to be delivered by Network Rail during the five-year control period 2014-2019. The report will be published in the autumn.

In the meantime, Network Rail and the local authorities within the East West Rail Consortium are continuing to work to deliver the core East West Rail (Western Section) scheme and electrification as planned.


...

In Bicester, London Road Crossing is going to be closed for a further month up to 11 October now. At the very least, it seems plans are changing at short notice.

 

[Chris125]

Both types pictured do indeed have mounting holes on the top but they are two different types of pile. End of story.

I don't agree, using the fence to provide scale they don't look any wider IMO.

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't agree, using the fence to provide scale they don't look any wider IMO.

As a result of this extensive correspondence, I am convinced the piles are either for signalling, or electrification, or indeed something else.

 

[Hophead]

Is it possible that the HOPS train has been doing some testing (in a non-critical location), perhaps following some sort of modification? Or would somebody have noticed the thing trundling through the site?

I'm guessing, as you've probably spotted.

 

[davetheguard]

Is it possible that the HOPS train has been doing some testing (in a non-critical location), perhaps following some sort of modification? Or would somebody have noticed the thing trundling through the site?

I'm guessing, as you've probably spotted.

I'm pretty sure that there is not currently any rail access from the rest of the network at the Oxford end of the line; it looked disconnected with a sleeper across the track when I passed through Oxford on an up HST off the Cotswold Line last Sunday.

So the HOPS would have to go all the way round via Hanwell, Greenford, & Wycombe to gain access.......

 

[midlandred]

I'm pretty sure that there is not currently any rail access from the rest of the network at the Oxford end of the line; it looked disconnected with a sleeper across the track when I passed through Oxford on an up HST off the Cotswold Line last Sunday.

So the HOPS would have to go all the way round via Hanwell, Greenford, & Wycombe to gain access.......

Wolvercote Tunnel 2 Aug 2015

 

[ironstone11]

As a result of this extensive correspondence, I am convinced the piles are either for signalling, or electrification, or indeed something else.

Not electrification. See https://www.flickr.com/photos/60790501@N04/20576088889/in/datetaken/

Most likely ground stabilisation?

 

[moggie]

Foundation piles for noise barrier?

Definitely going to be something attached to the top of those piles.

 

[HowardGWR]

Mortar tubes for new 'last line of defence'?

 

[Class 170101]

Too many too close to be OLE piles.

 

[Chris125]

Well that puts a different light on things! Seems to rule out electrification and signalling, and I think they've used conventional sheet piles for stabilisation elsewhere so very strange. Perhaps a bit excessive for an acoustic barrier but presumably there's a good reason.

 

[Andyjs247]

Well that puts a different light on things! Seems to rule out electrification and signalling, and I think they've used conventional sheet piles for stabilisation elsewhere so very strange. Perhaps a bit excessive for an acoustic barrier but presumably there's a good reason.

I'd also hope that, since they have been working on site for 18 months now, extensive stabilisation or drainage work would not still be necessary at this stage. I mean the track bed has been totally rebuilt from the bottom up, plus since relaying they've had the relative luxury of having the line available for up to 23 hours a day for engineering work.

So I tend to agree that these are probably for an acoustic barrier, even if they do look rather well engineered.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Edit:

Mystery solved. It has now been confirmed by Network Rail that the steel piles being installed are to support noise barrier stanchions as NR are installing noise barriers along this section of track. There are no works for electrification being carried out along the line currently.

 

[ironstone11]

Mystery solved. It has now been confirmed by Network Rail that the steel piles being installed are to support noise barrier stanchions as NR are installing noise barriers along this section of track. There are no works for electrification being carried out along the line currently.

I am surprised that only one pile (so far) has appeared on the other side where there are also houses.

 

[gazthomas]

Why does everything take so long in the UK, yes, consultation, engaging with stakeholders, planning rules but is it making us less competitive globally?

 

[Class 170101]

There are no works for electrification being carried out along the line currently.

What a waste of a 'greenfield' rail construction site - more costs added later when the wires are finally put up and trains have to be replaced by buses.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

What a waste of a 'greenfield' rail construction site - more costs added later when the wires are finally put up and trains have to be replaced by buses.

It has been pointed out before that electrification plant and supply chain assets are employed elsewhere.