East Mids Rover: not valid SOT-MKC direct?

[Tugzrule]

Morning all,

Can anyone confirm what I’ve been told by a Virgin Trains TM and their Twitter team this morning that travel between Stoke on Trent and Milton Keynes is not valid on their services?

They are saying that the blurb at the top of the description on National Rail is the routing restrictions, not markers of validity of the rover. The map contradicts this point, showing that travel is valid from Nuneaton to Rugby, therefore negating traveling via Coventry as they state

 

[krus_aragon]

Given that the National Rail page lists Virgin as a participating company just below the so-called "blurb", and the attached map includes Nuneaton-Rugby, I can't think what valid reason they'd have to refuse it.

If the map or page are wrong, they need to lean on NRE to correct it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that the National Rail page lists Virgin as a participating company just below the so-called "blurb", and the attached map includes Nuneaton-Rugby, I can't think what valid reason they'd have to refuse it.

If the map or page are wrong, they need to lean on NRE to correct it.

Looks definitely valid to me. They didn't attempt to charge you, did they?

 

[Tugzrule]

I was told by the TM who scanned the QR code on my ticket (don’t get me started on the unsuitability of bog roll tickets for a rover) saying that it might only be valid by slower routes, even when confronted by the National rail map. She said that if one of her colleagues did things ‘by the book’ that I could be charged a new ticket

Virgin Trains Twitter have gone rather quiet since being confronted about the flaw in their specified routing going against what the map shows

 

[krus_aragon]

Virgin Trains Twitter have gone rather quiet since being confronted about the flaw in their specified routing going against what the map shows

Let's hope they're busy checking their facts before responding.

 

[DarloRich]

Morning all,

Can anyone confirm what I’ve been told by a Virgin Trains TM and their Twitter team this morning that travel between Stoke on Trent and Milton Keynes is not valid on their services?

They are saying that the blurb at the top of the description on National Rail is the routing restrictions, not markers of validity of the rover. The map contradicts this point, showing that travel is valid from Nuneaton to Rugby, therefore negating traveling via Coventry as they state

i have done it several times and the map seems to show that it is valid.

I was told by the TM who scanned the QR code on my ticket (don’t get me started on the unsuitability of bog roll tickets for a rover) saying that it might only be valid by slower routes, even when confronted by the National rail map. She said that if one of her colleagues did things ‘by the book’ that I could be charged a new ticket

A colleague has had similar issues ( almost word for word) on his MKC - Brum season ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A colleague has had similar issues ( almost word for word) on his MKC - Brum season ticket.

In what context? Using VT at all, or doing a slightly esoteric route e.g. via Nuneaton?

If the former somebody is trying to get themselves the sack...

 

[Tugzrule]

I’m chasing them up for a response, as they’re clearing just ignoring me, under the impression that going to be traveling on that route later this week (highly likely) and querying that I won’t be charged a new ticket because of the lack of clarity on the National Rail website and the fact that I’ve used the rover on their route at least half a dozen times without even the slightest murmur.

 

[DarloRich]

In what context? Using VT at all, or doing a slightly esoteric route e.g. via Nuneaton?

If the former somebody is trying to get themselves the sack...

A direct Virgin train somewhere near Coventry!

I’m chasing them up for a response, as they’re clearing just ignoring me, under the impression that going to be traveling on that route later this week (highly likely) and querying that I won’t be charged a new ticket because of the lack of clarity on the National Rail website and the fact that I’ve used the rover on their route at least half a dozen times without even the slightest murmur.

someone made an error. I have used the same route many times without challenge. Why? Because the route is valid. There is the map for anyone intresyted: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/promotions/East_Midlands_Rover.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

A direct Virgin train somewhere near Coventry!

The mind boggles, particularly because if they were going to use LNR there's a cheaper routed fare, so near everyone buying an Any Permitted season is going to be using VT!

 

[Tugzrule]

They still appear adamant I’m wrong...

 

[krus_aragon]

They still appear adamant I’m wrong...

You may want to ask them when the validity "changed", and why NRE hasn't been updated to reflect their new stance on things, etc.

 

[Tugzrule]

You may want to ask them when the validity "changed", and why NRE hasn't been updated to reflect their new stance on things, etc.

That’s exactly what I’ve just done funnily enough! If it’s down to the mere interpretation of a few words, which clearly aren’t suitable or defined especially when contradicting the map, then it’s simply unacceptable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s exactly what I’ve just done funnily enough! If it’s down to the mere interpretation of a few words, which clearly aren’t suitable or defined especially when contradicting the map, then it’s simply unacceptable.

What, these words?

Allows travel north and east of Milton Keynes via Bedford or Coventry as far as Sheffield and Grimsby.

Yes, those are potentially misleading. However the map is very clear.

 

[Tugzrule]

The fact it says as far as Grimsby when that’s not even the end of the validity of the ticket shows even more that the wording is inadequate

 

[eastdyke]

I have been concerned for a little while that TOC's may not be up to the mark with updates not being reflected on NRE.
This has been particularly noticeable with prices and may not be by accident (although I have no evidence of that).
A random check of Rover/Ranger products shows prices that are not up-to-date for all 4 that I checked just now:
East Mids. 3 days in 7, East Mids. 7 day, Lincolnshire Day, Anglia Plus Day.

 

[Hadders]

Sounds like VTWC are making things up.

 

[Tugzrule]

A further issue with the pricing on the 3 in 7 East Mids is that the published price for 16-25 is different to the rest and still wrong!

I asked LNWR the same question on validity and they linked to the 7 day rover which funnily enough has no mention of Coventry in the description which VT used as a routing stipulation. Hmm...

 

[Tugzrule]

Update...

National Rail have now said that it’s ok....

 

[krus_aragon]

Right, now let them fight it out among themselves!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Right, now let them fight it out among themselves!

Do it!

 

[robbeech]

As I can’t see all of the tweet from the screenshots. Can I assume that both the TOC and NRE have been included in all the tweets so they can all see what is going on.

 

[ashworth]

What is the best way to deal with this sort of situation? What should you do if you are travelling using a ticket which you are 100% certain that is valid and a TM refuses to accept it and tries to insist that you pay another fare? I accept that getting rude and abusive is not the answer and that you must try to remain calm and and as polite as possible in the situation. Do you eventually have to pay for another ticket and then claim the money back or do you completely refuse to pay.

I’ve never had anything like this happen to me when travelling by train but I have had it happen to me on buses with a perfectly valid multi operator ticket. I once had a First bus driver refuse to accept a valid Greater Manchester Wayfarer Ticket between Rochdale and Manchester. He said it wasn’t valid because it was printed on rail ticket stock and had the words words rail rover at the top. In this case I just gave up, got off, and caught the next bus. It wasn’t fair to hold up and delay a bus full of passengers and there was a queue behind me waiting to board. He was very determined and was not going to back down and let me travel.

 

[RJ]

What is the best way to deal with this sort of situation? What should you do if you are travelling using a ticket which you are 100% certain that is valid and a TM refuses to accept it and tries to insist that you pay another fare? I accept that getting rude and abusive is not the answer and that you must try to remain calm and and as polite as possible in the situation. Do you eventually have to pay for another ticket and then claim the money back or do you completely refuse to pay.

Don't give them any money.

Explain why your ticket is valid, once. Politely signpost them to where they can check. If they still insist on charging you, end the conversation and let them go about their business. Be nice but don't worry too much about their feelings - they couldn't care less about wrongly stinging you in the pocket.

Being able to check NRE for validity is a research skill. The railways don't require anyone selling tickets, checking tickets or advising customers on ticket validity to have that skill. It's entirely optional which is why it's pot luck. Knowing who to contact to get an expert opinion is also an optional skill.

I suggest you signpost them to the Pricing Manager or the Rail Delivery Group's retail management department where they will certainly find colleagues who can help.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Don't give them any money.

Explain why your ticket is valid, once. Politely signpost them to where they can check. If they still insist on charging you, end the conversation and let them go about their business.

Worst case scenario: consider the "Three Fails". If any member of staff checking tickets feels the need to involve BTP (or any other constabulary's officers) they should not do so unless they have the Three Fails, ie failure to produce for inspection a valid ticket when asked to do so, failure to purchase a suitable ticket when given the opportunity to do so and failure to provide name and address, which may be verified at the time, to allow for subsequent redress. In this situation you could find yourself having to give your details to avoid involving a police officer, who you can be sure will be considerably less well versed in ticketing matters than the member of railway staff yet still feel inclined to side with that person, but such details will go to the TOC's revenue protection people who can at least consider the issue of validity at their leisure. Most likely outcome is a subsequent note to the member of staff correcting them as to the actual validity of the ticket in question. Totally agree that it is important to remain calm.

In this particular case I suspect there may be two factors at play. Firstly VT's long-standing reluctance to allow continued validity of nearly all rovers and rangers and secondly a new manager in revenue or pricing feeling the need to re-issue certain guidance and simply getting it wrong. Let's face it most people on here will admit that at times the fares system can be difficult to make sense of and we're reasonably interested. A "suit" who is simply climbing the ladder probably has no idea just how much complexity exists and even once aware may very well ignore it on the grounds that they expect to move on again in the not too distant future. None of this excuses what has been described in this thread but we are where we are.

 

[Mag_seven]

Sounds like VTWC are making things up.

Without any consequences, unlike if it was the other way round.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Without any consequences, unlike if it was the other way round.

To be fair to them, the description is misleading and does back them up in the incompetent way it is worded. And there is no suggestion they wouldn't accept it on a service via Cov.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being able to check NRE for validity is a research skill. The railways don't require anyone selling tickets, checking tickets or advising customers on ticket validity to have that skill. It's entirely optional which is why it's pot luck. Knowing who to contact to get an expert opinion is also an optional skill.

It would be good if every ticket had a QR code which when scanned by a member of staff would show validity, be that a list of Permitted Routes and time restrictions for a point to point ticket (including an "is it valid by time to depart here on this train selected from a departure board" feature) or Rover validity.

But the problem in this case is the incorrect description. Someone not in the know would on reading that believe it was not valid via the Trent Valley - it clearly (wrongly) states it is valid via Bedford or Coventry only. The latter should really say Rugby which would solve the issue.

 

[RJ]

What staff should do and what they will do are two very different things. It depends entirely on their temperament and attitude towards adhering to procedure.

 

[RJ]

It would be good if every ticket had a QR code which when scanned by a member of staff would show validity, be that a list of Permitted Routes and time restrictions for a point to point ticket (including an "is it valid by time to depart here on this train selected from a departure board" feature) or Rover validity.

But the problem in this case is the incorrect description. Someone not in the know would on reading that believe it was not valid via the Trent Valley - it clearly (wrongly) states it is valid via Bedford or Coventry only. The latter should really say Rugby which would solve the issue.

Anything that would help make the job easier is worth trying, but it would need to be useful for other functions to make it worthwhile!