East Midlands Trains - Ticket Validity Query

[tom3107]

Hi,
Today I boarded the 1745 service from St Pancras to change at Luton Airport Parkway for Flitwick with 3 children. I normally do this on returning from London as it is nearly always quicker to change at Luton or Luton Airport Parkway - I have never had a problem with this before.
I bought the tickets at Flitwick this morning with a full price adult ticket and 3 child tickets priced at £2.00 each, all this tickets have route marked as ANY PERMITTED. The guard came and checked the tickets and said that the child fares were valid on FCC only, however the tickets did not state this and I have been doing this for years without problems - most recently last Thursday. The guard said that we would have to pay for 3 full price child tickets, however I refused and the train was approaching Luton Airport Parkway and the guard decided that it would be cheaper to let us go than to delay the train. He could not show me any proof that the tickets were not valid.
My question is, are the £2 child tickets (family travelcards) valid on East Midland Trains considering we have never had this problem before.
Thanks.

 

[bb21]

What is the ticket type?

My gut instinct is that if it says nothing on the ticket that it is FCC Only, rather Any Permitted, then it should be valid on EMT. However I need your ticket type and/or prices paid to say for sure.

 

[First class]

He has Family Tcd for 3 kids


FTC - OFF-PEAK FAM TC
00000 - ANY PERMITTED

3 Children @£ 2.00 = £ 6.00
__________
£ 6.00

Standard Class Single

Restriction says not valid from STP (on return) between 1630 and 1901 regardless of where you join/leave the train.

Ticket was NOT valid due to a TIME restriction.

 

[tom3107]

Ticket Type: "OFF-PEAK FAM"
Between: "FLITWICK* & LONDON ZONES 1-6"
Price: "£2.00M"
Route: "ANY PERMITTED"

Used exactly same ticket types last Thursday on EMT

 

[island]

I'm guessing it was an OFFPEAK FAM TC from Flitwick to London Zones 1-6, in which case the guard was correct that it was invalid, but for the wrong reason. That ticket is not valid on any services timed to depart London St Pancrs between 1630 and 1901 Monday to Friday, and there is no bank holiday exception.

Edit: good guess I suppose, if a bit slow to post!

 

[causton]

Although, FCC have a bank holiday exception don't they - meaning the tickets were valid on FCC and not EMT - and therefore he was saying the wrong thing, but not clarifying enough?

(Which doesn't explain why the child tickets were invalid but the adult ticket wasn't - blah)

 

[First class]

Very, very lucky.

Guard was well within his rights to sell you new tickets costing £28.50!

And any "bank holiday exception" would be dependant on a specific ticket restriction code... in which case this ticket is not valid on either FCC or EMT in the evening peak on a bank holiday, unless there is an easement somewhere.

 

[tom3107]

He just said the child tickets were invalid and we would just have to purchase new child tickets

 

[Ivo]

I'm guessing it was an OFFPEAK FAM TC from Flitwick to London Zones 1-6, in which case the guard was correct that it was invalid, but for the wrong reason. That ticket is not valid on any services timed to depart London St Pancrs between 1630 and 1901 Monday to Friday, and there is no bank holiday exception.

Note 1 says the following:

1. See also 'London' section
'Easements' section and
relevant customer information
leaflets for further details.
Travel restrictions do not
apply on Public Holidays.

 

[First class]

He just said the child tickets were invalid and we would just have to purchase new child tickets

I'm guessing you had a Sup Off Peak TCD which IS valid any time of a bank holiday, but the Child TCDs are still restricted.

Adult restriction:

Restriction : FB
OUTWARD TRAVEL

Travel is permitted on any
train at any time on Saturday,
Sunday & Bank Holidays.

RETURN TRAVEL

Return travel is permitted on
any train at any time
Saturday, Sunday & Bank
Holidays.

 

[island]

Note 1 says the following:

1. See also 'London' section
'Easements' section and
relevant customer information
leaflets for further details.
Travel restrictions do not
apply on Public Holidays.

Hmm. That's not published on the NRE version of the restriction at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/ODT_LS.pdf, but is on Avantix. If you scroll down six miles.

 

[Mike395]

I'm guessing you had a Sup Off Peak TCD which IS valid any time of a bank holiday, but the Child TCDs are still restricted.

Adult restriction:

Restriction : FB
OUTWARD TRAVEL

Travel is permitted on any
train at any time on Saturday,
Sunday & Bank Holidays.

RETURN TRAVEL

Return travel is permitted on
any train at any time
Saturday, Sunday & Bank
Holidays.

Restriction LS Note 1 states:

1. See also 'London' section
'Easements' section and
relevant customer information
leaflets for further details.
Travel restrictions do not
apply on Public Holidays.

 

[island]

Guard was well within his rights to sell you new tickets costing £28.50!

Actually it would have been an excess to the cheapest available walk-up ticket which would be valid for the journey, which is a SUP OFFPK DAYTC, for £6.75 × 3 = £20.25.

 

[First class]

Actually it would have been an excess to the cheapest available walk-up ticket which would be valid for the journey, which is a SUP OFFPK DAYTC, for £6.75 × 3 = £20.25.

That's not always true! (Dependant on 12b NRcoC).

Before travel, yes, an excess would have been available at the booking office.

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.
If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms

So actually, child tickets could have be sold. They would be required to purchase 3 x Adult SDS which would be very expensive.

 

[tom3107]

But, I can't understand how a child ticket marked ANY PERMITTED can not be valid when exactly the same adult ticket is valid. I make the same journey with the same ticket types on EMT to Luton/Luton Airport Parkway about 2/3 times per month and have been doing this for years and have never had any problems in the past. The guards normally look at them, smile and stamp them.

 

[island]

That's not always true!

Before travel, yes, an excess would have been available at the booking office.

So actually, child tickets could have be sold. They would be required to purchase 3 x Adult SDS which would be very expensive.

Condition 12 suggests otherwise.

...If a restriction applies and the ticket you
are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price
paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket
available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that
train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

So unless FCC/EMT's notices and publications say so, an on-train excess is permitted.

Even if it were not, for some reason, I don't think a child would have to buy an adult ticket.

 

[Mike395]

But, I can't understand how a child ticket marked ANY PERMITTED can not be valid when exactly the same adult ticket is valid. I make the same journey with the same ticket types on EMT to Luton/Luton Airport Parkway about 2/3 times per month and have been doing this for years and have never had any problems in the past. The guards normally look at them, smile and stamp them.

That's the thing, due to it being Good Friday, I cant see any time restriction issues (Guards should check the restrictions in Avantix if unsure, which as I posted above, quite clearly state the tickets are valid on Good Friday.) and Any Permitted tickets are valid on FCC unless they're Groupsave tickets, so I think the guard was wrong on this occasion

Worth bearing in mind however for the future you cannot return between 4 and 7 inclusive on any weekday which isnt a public holiday

 

[First class]

But, I can't understand how a child ticket marked ANY PERMITTED can not be valid when exactly the same adult ticket is valid. I make the same journey with the same ticket types on EMT to Luton/Luton Airport Parkway about 2/3 times per month and have been doing this for years and have never had any problems in the past. The guards normally look at them, smile and stamp them.

Because they aren't the same ticket!

The children have a Family Travelcard, you have a Super Off Peak TCD.

 

[island]

But, I can't understand how a child ticket marked ANY PERMITTED can not be valid when exactly the same adult ticket is valid.

It's not the same adult ticket! ANY PERMITTED just describes the route you are allowed to take on your journey. The ticket type is on the top line of the ticket, and for an adult, today, it would be a SUP OFFPK DAYTC for £17.50, which is valid at any time on Saturdays, Sundays, and bank holidays. On other days, it would be an OFF-PEAK TCDSTD costing £22, which has the same evening restriction as the Family Travelcard mentioned above.

I make the same journey with the same ticket types on EMT to Luton/Luton Airport Parkway about 2/3 times per month and have been doing this for years and have never had any problems in the past. The guards normally look at them, smile and stamp them.

Do you usually travel between 1630 and 1901 from St. Pancras?

In any case, the guard did screw up. The ticket is valid on EMT (as long as it's used during the permitted times).

 

[Mike395]

Because they aren't the same ticket!

The children have a Family Travelcard, you have a Super Off Peak TCD.

But as I say, from what I can see the CHFAM travelcard IS valid on Public Holidays at any time, as quoted by myself and a couple of others (note 1 on the restriction code)

 

[tom3107]

On bank holidays/weekends we travel between 1630 and 1701 - any other time we follow the restrictions, and normally at STP it says on the departure boards "SUPER OFF-PEAK and OFF-PEAK TICKETS NOT VALID ON THIS SERVICE"

 

[Mike395]

On bank holidays/weekends we travel between 1630 and 1701 - any other time we follow the restrictions, and normally at STP it says on the departure boards "SUPER OFF-PEAK and OFF-PEAK TICKETS NOT VALID ON THIS SERVICE"

It does indeed, hence reaffirming my belief that your tickets WERE valid and the guard was incorrect.

 

[tom3107]

I thought he was wrong considering I do it everytime I go to London and don't get challenged!!!

 

[sheff1]

Very interesting. On Good Friday I was also travelling on EMT and two Dutch travellers boarded at Luton Airport Parkway. When they showed their tickets to the guard he said they were not valid on EMT but only on the 'stopping trains'. They were told they needed to buy brand new tickets, but the guard then disappeared and did not return.

I assumed they must hold FCC-only tickets but checking (as a result of this thread) I couldn't find any. Are there any such tickets ?

 

[Mike395]

Very interesting. On Good Friday I was also travelling on EMT and two Dutch travellers boarded at Luton Airport Parkway. When they showed their tickets to the guard he said they were not valid on EMT but only on the 'stopping trains'. They were told they needed to buy brand new tickets, but the guard then disappeared and did not return.

I assumed they must hold FCC-only tickets but checking (as a result of this thread) I couldn't find any. Are there any such tickets ?

There are from Luton Airport Parkway Easyjet sell cheap tickets through to London which aren't valid on EMT (and the platform signs clearly indicate so). They're the only ones I know of apart from Groupsave .