East Midlands Trains General Discussion

[P156KWJ]

Its ok when youve gotthe stock to do it with as SWT may have but EMT havent !

oh right!! you've finally realised that have you?! Yes I actually got through to you!

 

[MCR247]

sorry but that's rubbish! You can depart from platforms 1-5 heading east no worries. It was routine in CT days with Birmingham-Grimsby. you might even be able to go from P6! I can remember London HSTs departing from P1 too

What I meant was, the other platforms are usually booked. I think its like this (at the time Liverpool - Norwich trains get there)

P1 - Normally where Liverpool-norwich/ Leicester - Lincoln
P2-Bay Platform
P3 - Normally XC Cardiff. EMT London SLOW 222(?)
P4 - EMT London FAST
P5 - Norwich - Liverpool/Nottingham - Birmingham XC
P6- Lincoln - Leicester

 

[Pumbaa]

Thats the whoel problaem the 158s are so un reliable that diagrams are increasingly becoming short formed at least my idear not every jorney won't be split only a few per day and those whom don't like changing trains can avoid those particular jouneys.

Even if they won't take on 180s for those jouneys involved in my ideartdepeding on how busy the Corby Service is they could use two of the pioneers on those two daigrams.

As there is a chance of taking on 3x180s on a hire basis or sub lease then they ought to grab them whilst they can instead of hoping and relying on a cascade for more 2car units or 153s.

Get this 180 idea out of your head before I shoot you.

Hull Trains have got some, Grand Central/Grand Union have got some and NXEC have got some protected, 3 of which are subleased to Northern. It's discussed elsewhere if you want to contribute your drivel to it. Summary - EMT can't have 180s.

Depending on how busy the Corby services are has nothing to do with it -they must run the service to London as it's a timetable requirement in the franchise. Summary - all mainline stock used, Liv - Norwich can't have 222s unless maybe on Saturdays, which other members have said is possible.

Summary of all - you're wasting your breath, wasting vital seconds of my life reading your posts and I suspect others. Now please shut up.

 

[tbtc]

Get this 180 idea out of your head before I shoot you

Well said!

Face it, the Liverpool - Norwich route is perfect for 158s, it's mainly under 100 mph, but faster in places than other units could cope with. It's the most 158-ish route there is!

If you want it to be an "intercity" service then forget about service small places like Widness/ Dore/ Dronfield.

Four car 158s north of Nottingham seem to be the best solution in the short/ medium turn.

As for the idea of running 158s to Corby - the Corby service interworks with the Sheffield one - are you seriously suggesting a two car 158 from Sheffield to London? :roll:

 

[WillPS]

As for the idea of running 158s to Corby - the Corby service interworks with the Sheffield one - are you seriously suggesting a two car 158 from Sheffield to London? :roll:

I don't think this part is entirely stupid. Of course, they'd have to reconfigure the service to seperate out the Sheffield workings. I've no idea how possible that is.

What'd be smarter is a single or 2 car Sprinter forming a branch from Corby to Kettering. People keep mentioning that they're franchised to run them all the way to London, but then they're also franchised to run trains from Crewe to Nottingham - which they do, albeit only once a week last thing on a Sunday!!

 

[MCR247]

What about a 2car sprinter running ffrom Corby-Kettering off peak connecting with a London train, and making a connection for a train foing north. The at peak times split a 9/10car 222 andf for 4car/5car to Corby and then join at Kettering on return, or just go by itself.

This probably woudnt work for various reasons anyway like
-where would the sprinter be stored/maintained
-where would the peak 222(s) come from
and probably may more

 

[222001]

Which Liverpool-Norwich services should be or normally are double 158s? I'm hoping "John 158" will be able to tell me this.

 

[Failed Unit]

Which Liverpool-Norwich services should be or normally are double 158s? I'm hoping "John 158" will be able to tell me this.

I think both the 1652 & 1752 are supposed to be (but not the 1552), there is another one which if I recall correctly is the 1952. (all ex Liverpool along with the inward journeys)

There are some in the morning peak. 3 units are used for strengthening trying to coincide with the peaks in Manchester, Sheffield and Liverpool.

I have seen it documented, I will search and find the link!

 

[Kneedown]

Stopping at Liverpool South Parkway has slowed the service down incredibly as after it had crawled through LSPW when the service did not stop there they used to speed up to 90mph until just before Edge Hill Curve now they only travel up to about 60/70mph up to Edge Hill Curve.

Sorry, but there's no way a 158 can get anywhere near 90mph between Allerton and the 30PSR at Edge Hill, not unless it had a jet pack!
The stop at Liverpool South Parkway has really made very little difference to the timings as the speed over Allerton Jct from Hunts X direction is only 20mph anyway.

I've just had a good look at this entire thread and there's some good stuff, and some absolute claptrap. It'd take me all day to comment on everything individually so i'll just say this....
Tim Shoveller has indeed stated in the past that he wants the Liverpool - Norwich route to a "Mainline" operation as opposed to "Connect". In my opinion that this is exactly the way it should be run. Norwich - Thetford - Ely - Peterbro - Grantham - Nottingham - Chesterfield - Sheffield - Stockpt - Man Picc & Ox Rd - Warrington Cen - Liverpool Sth P'way - Lime St, is the ideal stopping pattern. Passengers wanting Widnes have a decent Northern service, and those wanting Alfreton now also have a Northern service.
As regards the 180's, no one more than myself has been a greater proponent of bringing them to this route, but even i accept that it won't happen now. EMT DID bid for 5. I am reliably informed the bid was veto'd by person's higher up the EMT Management/Directorship chain for being too costly.
158's are NOT suitable units for this route as they are too short, not fast enough, underpowered with appalling cab conditions, and they are long past their sell by date for express running. This is the year 2009, there should be something much better on a Class 1 train!
The ideal IDEAL solution, in a world overflowing with cash, would be if and when the MML was electrified, infill all the non electrified bits between Liv and Norwich and get an Intercity style EMU.
Unfortunately the world doesn't appear to be overflowing with cash at the minute, and so the next sensible thing to do would be to have a 153 shuttling between Corby and Kettering, connecting with the London's, and have the recently accquired Pioneers or Meridians on the Service. They are cleared for the entire route (So there would appear to be no reason a 180 couldnt have been) and would maintain timings due to the better acceleration and braking over a 158.
If a new build, lightweight Meridian or Adelante could get approval then even better! Lets get right away from the idea of a 172, which is nothing more than a modernised 170, which was also woefully underpowered for this route.

In short, EMT did pass up the opportunity to get 180's, and have now missed their chance. Lets face it, they'd have done more 125mph running than they will going between Man and Blackpool! But the fact is, it's done. All we traincrew on EMT can hope for now is that someone, somewhere in EMT or D(a)ft, who has the authority, wakes up and smells the coffee, otherwise the route will get a lot worse before it gets better.

 

[jacknottm]

What I meant was, the other platforms are usually booked. I think its like this (at the time Liverpool - Norwich trains get there)

P1 - Normally where Liverpool-norwich/ Leicester - Lincoln
P2-Bay Platform
P3 - Normally XC Cardiff. EMT London SLOW 222(?)
P4 - EMT London FAST
P5 - Norwich - Liverpool/Nottingham - Birmingham XC
P6- Lincoln - Leicester

New Timetable :
P1 - London Terminator [Slow meridian service] - Then goes ECS Out to Eastcroft and back into PL5, Lincoln services

P2 - All Skegness services, sometimes also caters for 0834 Norwich

P3 - Leeds northern services, Matlock service, Through Liverpool - Norwich's

P4 - XX55 Woodhouse, Cardiff Terminator which then goes ECS to Eastcroft, XX28 Londons

P5 - Birmingham Terminator , Worksop services, Norwich - Liverpool services. Birmingham service, 0637 Bournemouth

P6 - Cardiff XC services, Leicester service.

Jack
​

 

[jamesontheroad]

Since I have absolutely no involvement in this discussion, I can't help lighting the blue touch paper and chucking this one into the thread.

As confirmed here Glasgow - Edinburgh will be electric by 2016. If John_158 can hold out until then, he could spend the next 7 years petitioning ScotRail to release some of their three car 170s for Liverpool - Norwich.

Now, time for a swift exit before I get accused of adding fuel to the fire... :P

 

[John_158]

Since I have absolutely no involvement in this discussion, I can't help lighting the blue touch paper and chucking this one into the thread.

As confirmed here Glasgow - Edinburgh will be electric by 2016. If John_158 can hold out until then, he could spend the next 7 years petitioning ScotRail to release some of their three car 170s for Liverpool - Norwich.

Now, time for a swift exit before I get accused of adding fuel to the fire... :P

Stagecoach don't like 170s they got shut of them from SWT !

 

[222001]

Stagecoach don't like 170s they got shut of them from SWT !

I thought they just waited a uniform fleet?

 

[John_158]

I thought they just waited a uniform fleet?

Well i got the impresion that they didn't like them becuse there is no End Gangways.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Well i got the impresion that they didn't like them becuse there is no End Gangways.

So when can we expect them to get rid of their Meridians??

 

[jamesontheroad]

Well i got the impresion that they didn't like them becuse there is no End Gangways.

Yes, because they use the end gangways on the 158 fleet so much...

 

[John_158]

So when can we expect them to get rid of their Meridians??

Don't give them any idears !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Couple of Questions :-

A-Where does the 13.52 Liverpool Lime Street - Nottingham go onto affter it arrives at Nottingham as it does not apear to do a return journey.

B-Whom operates the Buffet on the HSTs

C-Whom operates / Runs the Shops on Merdians

 

[90019]

As confirmed here Glasgow - Edinburgh will be electric by 2016. If John_158 can hold out until then, he could spend the next 7 years petitioning ScotRail to release some of their three car 170s for Liverpool - Norwich.

Now, time for a swift exit before I get accused of adding fuel to the fire... :P

This is what I can understand, and what I think is going to happen with changes around the central belt:

Scotrail is currently going to get 38 380s, which will replace the 334s and 318s, and after a load of complicated cascading, and the opening of the Airdrie-Bathgate rail link making even more cascading, it's likely to end up with the 314s, 318s and 320s either being scrapped or sent to other TOCs (which seems less likely, as I dont think there's going to be a huge demand for 30 year old 25kV EMUs by that point), as the 314s will be over 30 years old and the 318s and 320s will be almost 30 years old by then.

 

[John_158]

To me personaly there seems to be something fishy about East Midlands Trains as they seem to have the same tricks as Northern and Merseyrail ie..

-Intentionaly Short forming trains

-Poor Maintiance

-Dirty Trains / Lack of interior cleaning

 

[bluenoxid]

So when can we expect them to get rid of their Meridians??

Tim Shoveller rang me this morning. We're going to be cutting up their HST's in the morning. Stagecoach are devastated at this rubbish with no gangways. :roll:

What suits one operator may not suit another. The facts lie on the ground pretty clearly. There is nothing that really can be done until new stock arrives.

 

[devon_metro]

You do better with a ****e rolling stock allocation then!

 

[John_158]

Tim Shoveller rang me this morning. We're going to be cutting up their HST's in the morning. Stagecoach are devastated at this rubbish with no gangways. :roll:

What suits one operator may not suit another. The facts lie on the ground pretty clearly. There is nothing that really can be done until new stock arrives.

Never Say Never Where theres a way theres a will

 

[222001]

To me personaly there seems to be something fishy about East Midlands Trains as they seem to have the same tricks as Northern and Merseyrail ie..

-Intentionaly Short forming trains

-Poor Maintiance

-Dirty Trains / Lack of interior cleaning

I don't think they don't short form on purpose. Whats the point in that? Gives them bad press and complaining passengers who then end up using their cars instead. So in the end less money for them.

I think they do all they can with regards to maintinance. They can't help having crappy 15X trains.

Arn't they clearing up the train interiors with their magic machine thingy.


Also whats wrong with Northern???

 

[90019]

To me personaly there seems to be something fishy about East Midlands Trains as they seem to have the same tricks as Northern and Merseyrail ie..

-Intentionaly Short forming trains

-Poor Maintiance

-Dirty Trains / Lack of interior cleaning

Oh, for crying out loud!

Look, now it's very simple. There is a rolling stock shortage.
There is either the choice of short forming more trains to perform more maintanance/cleaning, or run full length trains which are dirty and badly maintained.

Please, can I ask how you propose they can run full length, clean, well maintaned trains without the rolling stock to do it?
And don't suggest they get some from elsewhere, because the rolling stock shortage is affecting a lot of the TOCs, not just EMT.
Do you think they can just magic new trains out of thin air?
Please, I'm intrigued where you seem think this non existant rolling stock is going to come from.


And if you hate EMT so much, why don't you just travel with Northern instead?
Or do you just want something to moan about to everyone?

 

[John_158]

I don't think they don't short form on purpose. Whats the point in that?


Saves Fuel the past three Modays on the 17.52 from Liverpoool has only been formed of 2 cars whne it requires atleast 3 cars ie tag a 153 on.



I think they do all they can with regards to maintinance. They can't help having crappy 15X trains.


They don't seem to capable of looking affter there stock as three good units are becoming bad 158881/882 & 158783.


Arn't they clearing up the train interiors with their magic machine thingy.

Only inplaces to make it lok as thogh theve done something !


Also whats wrong with Northern ?

What right with them ! 156s on Stopping Services nobody on em

 

[90019]

Saves Fuel the past three Modays on the 17.52 from Liverpoool has only been formed of 2 cars whne it requires atleast 3 cars ie tag a 153 on.

And where do you propose this 153 comes from?

What right with them ! 156s on Stopping Services nobody on em

Surely you'd prefer that?
Or is it because you wouldn't be able to whine about overcrowding?
Can you explain why you don't like 156s on stopping services?


And please, can you leave the [/QUOTE] tags, it makes your posts quite difficult to read at times.

 

[222001]

They don't seem to capable of looking affter there stock as three good units are becoming bad 158881/882 & 158783.

Also whats wrong with Northern ?

What right with them ! 156s on Stopping Services nobody on em

I seen pictures of the interior of 158882 taken on 29th January 2009 at Lincoln and it was immaculate! - see here

What do you suggest Northern use? Most of their fleet is made up of 2 car trains. Whats wrong with 156s on stopping services anyway? All if not most of Northerns routes are stopping anyway.

 

[Mintona]

Trains only become dirty coz of passengers not respecting them and leaving rubbish lieing around/banging suitcases into walls etc.

EMT don't have any 153s lying around spare. Are you suggesting the good folk of (I don't know where the EMT 153s go!) lose their services completely so you don't have so many issues wth overcrowding? When you have alternatives with Northern anyway?

 

[Donny Dave]

To me personaly there seems to be something fishy about East Midlands Trains as they seem to have the same tricks as Northern and Merseyrail ie..

-Intentionaly Short forming trains

-Poor Maintiance

-Dirty Trains / Lack of interior cleaning

The lack of interior cleaning is probably down to the fact that units have to be out stabled away from depots. It's not practical (or cost effective) to run units as ECS from Sheffield to Leeds, give them 2 hours on depot, then run the back as ECS to Sheffield for example.

Also with my example above, you would need 2 paths for the ECS each way as well, due to the limitations on how many units can be coupled together. I presume this is the case with EMT and Merseyrail as well.

I've suggested before that you write to EMT with your concerns, as you'll get a far better response from them than you will on here. Seeing as your concerned about cleaning and maintanence as well, why don't you create a plan for them to implement so than can get all units cleaned and maintained every day/night, but without the lengthy ECS moves like I mentioned above.

 

[MCR247]

Is part of the reason that Liverpool - Norwich is overcrowded becuase there is not any other services form East Midlands to the North West?