East Midlands Railway Dec 2025 recast

[Jamesrob637]

reinstateing the 1540 notts norwich and 1857 return would be a good start

Again, were they Covid casualties?

 

[Class 170101]

Again, were they Covid casualties?

Haven't run since covid.

 

[DDB]

I think it is worth mentioning that at least some of the current Matlock diagrams appear to interwork with services East of Nottingham so some of the risk of delays being imported already exists.

 

[MatthewE707]

I can't seem to work out whether Matlock to Cleethorpes will be hourly, or alternatively Matlock to Lincoln is hourly, extended to Cleethorpes every 2 hours.

 

[liamf656]

I can't seem to work out whether Matlock to Cleethorpes will be hourly, or alternatively Matlock to Lincoln is hourly, extended to Cleethorpes every 2 hours.

Matlock to Lincoln hourly, with extensions to Cleethorpes very two hours, as I understand it

 

[43074]

Matlock to Lincoln is hourly, with 2-hourly extensions to Cleethorpes

 

[cle]

Are there any meaningful improvements here, especially frequency - or just swapping around terminating/through links?

 

[duffield]

Are there any meaningful improvements here, especially frequency - or just swapping around terminating/through links?

The regular extensions to Cleethorpes plus the second hourly service to Lincoln are both genuine improvements, neither exist in any form at present.

 

[Kite159]

The regular extensions to Cleethorpes plus the second hourly service to Lincoln are both genuine improvements, neither exist in any form at present.

Although the service to/from Lincoln will depend on the time difference between the two arrivals from Nottingham & two departures towards Nottingham.

If both trains arrive into Lincoln/Nottingham within 5 minutes of each other due to the differing stopping pattern, then it's not going to be much of an improvement. See Shrewsbury - Birmingham on WMR.

 

[DDB]

Are there any meaningful improvements here, especially frequency - or just swapping around terminating/through links?

Lots of frequency improvements for smaller stations. See the first page of this thread for details. e.g. Spondon getting a 7 day a week hourly service compared to the current Mon-Sat every 2 hours outside the peaks.

 

[QSK19]

In terms of frequency improvements, really wish that the Ivanhoe service could be run on Sundays as was originally put forward when EMR took over, but I suppose any improvement for small stations anywhere within the EMR network is to be appreciated.

 

[Failed Unit]

The biggest disappointment to me is that Lincoln.- Grimsby is actually getting worse (extra stops), stays every 2 hours. Hopefully we will see 3 coach trains so people don’t get left behind as frequently if they wont got to hourly.

 

[DDB]

It appears to be up on Realtime trains if people want to have a look.

I THINK I've spotted a much later Mansfield Woodhouse train from Nottingham but while the last Matlock is technically later it is only about 15 mins later and still only just after 10pm which is still a bit early.

Still some annoyingly long gaps after 10pm between Nottingham and Derby but CrossCountry isn't loaded yet so maybe that will get better.

 

[tram21]

I THINK I've spotted a much later Mansfield Woodhouse train from Nottingham but while the last Matlock is technically later it is only about 15 mins later and still only just after 10pm which is still a bit early.

On Sundays I assume you mean as the last weekday Matlock train arrives just after midnight at the moment

 

[43055]

Lincoln to Peterborough is also hourly.

Sundays - Crewe is still the same by only going to Derby from mid afternoon. Matlock is hourly from mid morning and also works through to Lincoln and Cleethorpes.

 

[Farigiraf]

Connections from Sheffield & Doncaster towards Barton are tight but definitely possible, though I wouldn't rely on a 6 minute connection from a service that's come all the way from Liverpool. From Lincoln/Nottingham it's better (10 minutes).

Peartree loses its two Newark-bound afternoon services, making it more difficult to visit by train outside of the early hours unless you arrive by bus.
All other calls at infrequently served stations remain mostly the same.

Otherwise, it seems to be well-timed, especially regarding connections from long-distance services onto local services (but some operators such as XC aren't yet in, so we shall see about those). The Matlock-Cleethorpes combination does not seem like it will be too reliable, reminds me of the Euston-Liverpool/Rugeley services on LNWR that often fell apart when there was any disruption.

Two minor things that I'm surprised weren't added: Firstly, removing the skip-stopping on the Robin Hood Line, it's quite unnecessary now. I think it was introduced during COVID and hasn't been reverted since. Secondly, the non-Cleethorpes Matlock service (which will terminate at Lincoln) not going any further seems like a missed opportunity. After LNER effectively mothballed its Cleethorpes plans, it could be a relatively easy win for EMR to add those proposed services to the Matlock-Lincoln services. Humberside to Lincoln, as well as Market Rasen, probably warrant an hourly service.

 

[tram21]

Firstly, removing the skip-stopping on the Robin Hood Line, it's quite unnecessary now. I think it was introduced during COVID and hasn't been reverted since

You mean the Mansfield Woodhouse terminators? They have to be express for the timetable to work with the single line, and I think the express trains are quite good for a faster journey- Newstead and Bulwell aren't as well used.

 

[DDB]

On Sundays I assume you mean as the last weekday Matlock train arrives just after midnight at the moment

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was referring to the time leaving Nottingham.

 

[duffield]

The 2tph to Lincoln, as expected allowing for stopping patterns and ECML flat crossing slots, are not evenly spaced, but not too bad. The fast service leaves Nottingham 23 minutes after the slower service and arrives at Lincoln 17 minutes after it, they take 1hr and 54 minutes respectively.
In the reverse direction the spacing is more even, the fast service leaves Lincoln 32 minutes after the slower service and arrives at Nottingham 26 minutes after it, so that should really spread the load.

 

[Failed Unit]

Connections from Sheffield & Doncaster towards Barton are tight but definitely possible, though I wouldn't rely on a 6 minute connection from a service that's come all the way from Liverpool. From Lincoln/Nottingham it's better (10 minutes).

Peartree loses its two Newark-bound afternoon services, making it more difficult to visit by train outside of the early hours unless you arrive by bus.
All other calls at infrequently served stations remain mostly the same.

Otherwise, it seems to be well-timed, especially regarding connections from long-distance services onto local services (but some operators such as XC aren't yet in, so we shall see about those). The Matlock-Cleethorpes combination does not seem like it will be too reliable, reminds me of the Euston-Liverpool/Rugeley services on LNWR that often fell apart when there was any disruption.

Two minor things that I'm surprised weren't added: Firstly, removing the skip-stopping on the Robin Hood Line, it's quite unnecessary now. I think it was introduced during COVID and hasn't been reverted since. Secondly, the non-Cleethorpes Matlock service (which will terminate at Lincoln) not going any further seems like a missed opportunity. After LNER effectively mothballed its Cleethorpes plans, it could be a relatively easy win for EMR to add those proposed services to the Matlock-Lincoln services. Humberside to Lincoln, as well as Market Rasen, probably warrant an hourly service.

I agree, it is a pity that the hourly service to Grimsby was never honoured (I know the franchise is dead but the demand isn’t)

The connections to LNER are very welcome (although that won’t help the overcrowding). Not sure why they have a 4 hour gap in the Doncaster service.

Extending hourly to Cleethorpes will need and extra unit and train crew, I am not sure if they have that, however when the the franchise was bid they must have planned to have enough stock (unless the 2x 170s that are still with Southern means this isn’t possible)

Hopefully this will be rectified in the future.

 

[ChrisC]

You mean the Mansfield Woodhouse terminators? They have to be express for the timetable to work with the single line, and I think the express trains are quite good for a faster journey- Newstead and Bulwell aren't as well used.

This could be referring to the skip stopping at Langwith Whaley Thorns and Whitwell.
I wish the pre covid timetable which ran successfully on the line from its introduction in 1998 could be restored. There was no skip stopping at Langwith or Whitwell in that timetable. Also the Mansfield Woodhouse terminators ran throughout the day as they now do on Saturdays. There was some skip stopping at Bulwell and Newstead to allow trains to get through the single line. Journey times have now been extended, trains are now only hourly and connections to many onward destinations are now very poor at Nottingham. For over 20 years the service was frequent and relatively reliable. Why couldn’t the old timetable be restored? Could it be a result of the introduction of the 170’s not being able to keep time on the long uphill section on the single line between Bulwell and Newstead?

 

[bunnahabhain]

This could be referring to the skip stopping at Langwith Whaley Thorns and Whitwell.
I wish the pre covid timetable which ran successfully on the line from its introduction in 1998 could be restored. There was no skip stopping at Langwith or Whitwell in that timetable. Also the Mansfield Woodhouse terminators ran throughout the day as they now do on Saturdays. There was some skip stopping at Bulwell and Newstead to allow trains to get through the single line. Journey times have now been extended, trains are now only hourly and connections to many onward destinations are now very poor at Nottingham. For over 20 years the service was frequent and relatively reliable. Why couldn’t the old timetable be restored? Could it be a result of the introduction of the 170’s not being able to keep time on the long uphill section on the single line between Bulwell and Newstead?

170s aren't able to keep to the timings. Whilst they have a higher speed they are much slower off the mark than a 156. It's why the RHL usually had 150s on it back in Central days. The 1 in 55 approx uphill to Kirkby is what kills the units off.

 

[duffield]

You mean the Mansfield Woodhouse terminators? They have to be express for the timetable to work with the single line, and I think the express trains are quite good for a faster journey- Newstead and Bulwell aren't as well used.

The 2tph pattern a few years ago used to be that alternate trains would skip either Bulwell *or* Newstead, but now the Mansfield terminators skip both and the Worksop trains serve both. Although of course the service is still mostly 1tph anyhow, Monday to Friday with on Saturday and some peak service Mon-Fri being 2tph.

 

[Farigiraf]

You mean the Mansfield Woodhouse terminators? They have to be express for the timetable to work with the single line, and I think the express trains are quite good for a faster journey- Newstead and Bulwell aren't as well used.

As ChrisC said, I was referring to the Worksop train skip/stopping Langwith-Whaley Thorns and Whitwell, giving both only a 2-hourly service. If the infrastructure permits (it did pre-COVID so it should now), there is very little reason why both shouldn't have an hourly service restored at the expense of 2-3 minutes extra journey time to Worksop passengers.

Nottingham-Mansfield is a busy corridor, both for commuters and because to get from Mansfield to most places on the rail network you have to go via Nottingham. Though there may not be enough trains (or tracks) available to run the service, once there is, the Mansfield Woodhouse terminator should definitely be brought back. Bulwell provides some interchange possibilities if travelling to northern Nottingham and not wanting to double-back via the town centre, and Newstead would be a great location for new housing, so in the long-term, having 2-3tph all-stops on that section is certainly justified.

 

[liamf656]

A few more anomalies that may be of interest

1M90 Sundays only
Nottingham
Derby
Belper
Chesterfield
Sheffield
Dore and Totley
Stockport
Manchester Piccadilly

1R98 Weekdays (1R76 Sundays) will provide a daily direct service from Norwich to Derby. It won't happen on Saturdays and there isn't a journey in the opposite direction, except...

1L02 Saturdays only, Derby to Norwich via Nottingham and Stamford, meaning there will be a direct train from Attenborough to Attleborough

1L35 Saturdays only, Liverpool to Sleaford

 

[Grimsby town]

Connections from Sheffield & Doncaster towards Barton are tight but definitely possible, though I wouldn't rely on a 6 minute connection from a service that's come all the way from Liverpool. From Lincoln/Nottingham it's better (10 minutes).

There's also some small improvements for the Barton line and stations currently served by the Barton line.

• The current 16:56 service from Cleethorpes to Barton leaves 15 minutes later which should make it more useful for any 9-5 workers
• It looks like New Clee and Grimsby Docks keep stops on the peak time Barton service and gain stops on the Matlock service so essentially has an hourly service between 16:00 and 18:00.
• There's a new early morning service for Stallingborough, Healing and Great Coates arriving at Grimsby at 07:59. This achieved by inserting stops in a Nottingham service.

I wonder if this opens the door for more stops in the Matlock service in the future. Healing in particular has a population of over 3k so is a fairly sizeable place which is only served by an unreliable Barton service.

 

[170UTD]

Connections for going north from Metheringham (my local) don't look to be as good, the only direct one is the 07:30 and connections from Metheringham to change onto Newark Northgate/Doncaster don't seem to work as well. Yes, you can go to Castle and walk across but it's not always easy if you have a large case, and advanced tickets don't always show up for that. Unless there as more connections via Retford with Northern. At least connections for Nottingham will be much easier now.
If I've missed something please let me know

 

[aeronott2013]

Based on the data loaded on RTT it looks like Hykeham is a big winner in the timetable changes with all Nottingham to Lincoln services now calling their.

Burton Joyce now has an hourly service. Thurgarton, Bleasby and Rolleston get a regular 2 hourly service closing some of the big gaps in service. Alternate trains from Crewe to Lincoln now call at either Thurgarton and Bleasby or Rolleston.

Carlton goes hourly on Sundays with services from Lincoln and Matlock to Nottingham now joined to form a through service. This will allow those east of Nottingham to enjoy a Sunday out in Matlock.

 

[jamesross]

I've managed to have a look for my local station in Collingham and compare figures.

On Saturdays we currently have 53 trains call, we will be dropping to 49 which is a surprise and frustration.

Collingham - Lincoln 23 trains (down from 26)
Collingham - Nottingham 23 trains (up from 17)
Collingham - Derby 21 trains (up from 0)

Lincoln - Collingham 26 trains (down from 27)
Nottingham - Collingham 19 trains (up from 17)
Derby - Collingham 16 trains (up from 0)

However Sundays we are going from 41 to 45 trains.

Collingham - Lincoln 23 trains (up from 21)
Collingham - Nottingham 15 trains (up from 14)
Collingham - Derby 12 trains (up from 0)

Lincoln - Collingham 22 trains (up from 20)
Nottingham - Collingham 15 trains (up from 13)
Derby - Collingham 12 trains (up from 0)

Finally  Weekdays we are going from 46 to 53 trains (Biggest Winner).

Collingham - Lincoln 25 trains (up from 23)
Collingham - Nottingham 25 trains (up from 19)
Collingham - Derby 18 trains (up from 0)

Lincoln - Collingham 28 trains (up from 23)
Nottingham - Collingham 21 trains (up from 18)
Derby - Collingham 17 trains (up from 0)

Positives
All services (except Collingham - Lincoln on Saturday) are up in numbers and we have the extra connection now for Derby, looking like it'll run at the quickest of 1h05.

Times seem to be more consistent running at similar times in the hour-ish.

Have an extra morning service to Lincoln during the week, and extra evening service too during rush hour.

Lincoln to Collingham gives us trains every 30 minutes during the week from 3pm - 6pm.

Collingham to Nottingham gives us 2 extra morning trains on a Saturday and every 30 minutes from 3.30pm-6.30pm.

During the week we have an extra service during morning rush hour and trains every 30 minutes in the afternoon 3.30pm-6.30pm to Nottingham.

From Nottingham during the week, we have trains every 30 minutes from 4.45pm-7pm.

Negatives
The biggest frustration is the dropoff of trains to and from Lincoln on a Saturday. This is mainly due to losing some of the Northgate services but really can't understand on such a busy day, why we'd lose numbers.

Anyway, I had fun having a look at this all in detail!

 

[bunnahabhain]

I've managed to have a look for my local station in Collingham and compare figures.

On Saturdays we currently have 53 trains call, we will be dropping to 49 which is a surprise and frustration.

Collingham - Lincoln 23 trains (down from 26)
Collingham - Nottingham 23 trains (up from 17)
Collingham - Derby 21 trains (up from 0)

Lincoln - Collingham 26 trains (down from 27)
Nottingham - Collingham 19 trains (up from 17)
Derby - Collingham 16 trains (up from 0)

However Sundays we are going from 41 to 45 trains.

Collingham - Lincoln 23 trains (up from 21)
Collingham - Nottingham 15 trains (up from 14)
Collingham - Derby 12 trains (up from 0)

Lincoln - Collingham 22 trains (up from 20)
Nottingham - Collingham 15 trains (up from 13)
Derby - Collingham 12 trains (up from 0)

Finally  Weekdays we are going from 46 to 53 trains (Biggest Winner).

Collingham - Lincoln 25 trains (up from 23)
Collingham - Nottingham 25 trains (up from 19)
Collingham - Derby 18 trains (up from 0)

Lincoln - Collingham 28 trains (up from 23)
Nottingham - Collingham 21 trains (up from 18)
Derby - Collingham 17 trains (up from 0)

Positives
All services (except Collingham - Lincoln on Saturday) are up in numbers and we have the extra connection now for Derby, looking like it'll run at the quickest of 1h05.

Times seem to be more consistent running at similar times in the hour-ish.

Have an extra morning service to Lincoln during the week, and extra evening service too during rush hour.

Lincoln to Collingham gives us trains every 30 minutes during the week from 3pm - 6pm.

Collingham to Nottingham gives us 2 extra morning trains on a Saturday and every 30 minutes from 3.30pm-6.30pm.

During the week we have an extra service during morning rush hour and trains every 30 minutes in the afternoon 3.30pm-6.30pm to Nottingham.

From Nottingham during the week, we have trains every 30 minutes from 4.45pm-7pm.

Negatives
The biggest frustration is the dropoff of trains to and from Lincoln on a Saturday. This is mainly due to losing some of the Northgate services but really can't understand on such a busy day, why we'd lose numbers.

Anyway, I had fun having a look at this all in detail!

The trains that are lost are probably the least useful ones to have anyway. Eg the NNG-LCN at 1501 which is followed by the 1512 call on the LEI-GMB. I'd much rather have a consistent evenly spread service supplemented in the peaks by the Crewe service.