East Midlands Franchise competition

[HH]

I don't think it makes any sense to run Class 222s as DOO anyway. Driver Open, Guard Close maybe.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't think it makes any sense to run Class 222s as DOO anyway. Driver Open, Guard Close maybe.

Why not ?

 

[class26]

Surely the simple solution for Liverpool - Norwich is to use some of the shorter 222s that becomes surplus after electrification and then use some of the released 158 from Liverpool - Norwich on other routes and use the sprinter fleet slightly less intensively to allow more maintenance?

But then we come back to the problem of speed differentials east of Peterborough with 222`s.

 

[ivanhoe]

I have to admit that the 158's are still one of my favourites. I often travel on the Nottingham to Liverpool route and EMT have kept them in good nick. I've been travelling on this route since the early 80's and it's amazing how many local markets it serves. I'm actually scratching my head as to a suitable replacement but have come to the conclusion that EMT played a blinder with 4 carriage operation between Liverpool and Nottingham. The fact that you may need a five car train to replace it, really underlines the fact that the 158 has been a truelly great train but workhorses rarely get on the podium in terms of looks and Inter City speeds.

 

[LowLevel]

Obviously I have a vested interest but I see no reason for EMT to lose the route whichever form it takes - naturally from our position as train crew it would be a huge loss to our workload and it's hard to see what would replace it sufficiently to avoid job losses - with TPE already having a depot in Sheffield you wouldn't imagine they'd need to open another in the East Mids, or if they did, that there'd be many willing takers to lose a varied workload in favour of the same route day in day out. I always do my best on those trains (and they're far from easy to work - either heaving with commuters or leisure passengers, students, hen/stag parties, general weekend drunks or sporting fans) and it would be a bitter blow to lose the work to other depots wearing a different uniform as a paper shuffling exercise.

 

[Kettledrum]

I do hope the new franchise will be 'transformative', not just in terms of new or upgraded rolling stock, but capacity, frequency and operating hours, particularly across the regional services. Anglia and TPE have set the bar high.

To my mind, the entire CrossCountry Turbostar operation should be added to the EM franchise. Split Cardiff to Nottingham at Birmingham, and let the new Welsh franchise sort out their half of that route. The enlarged EMT could then look to restore Birmingham to Lincoln and explore other synergies.

I'm not sure you want to clog up the platforms at Birmingham New Street with terminating trains if you can avoid it, so that would suggest not splitting Cardiff to Nottingham. This could change in the future if Camp Hill Chords are built but don't expect it to affect the EM franchise at this time

 

[Kneedown]

Obviously I have a vested interest but I see no reason for EMT to lose the route whichever form it takes - naturally from our position as train crew it would be a huge loss to our workload and it's hard to see what would replace it sufficiently to avoid job losses - with TPE already having a depot in Sheffield you wouldn't imagine they'd need to open another in the East Mids, or if they did, that there'd be many willing takers to lose a varied workload in favour of the same route day in day out. I always do my best on those trains (and they're far from easy to work - either heaving with commuters or leisure passengers, students, hen/stag parties, general weekend drunks or sporting fans) and it would be a bitter blow to lose the work to other depots wearing a different uniform as a paper shuffling exercise.

I'd hate to lose them too, but the main reason the possibility arose is the lack of Sunday coverage, and tje mass rejection of the Sunday deal at Nottingham risks playing into the oppositions hands (But if you mention that in the mess room you're accused of scaremongering!)
I love the variety of routes currently at Nottingham, and am fortunate to be one of the few Drivers there who sign HST's, but if it looked like it was going to become a local routes only depot, i'd go with the Liverpool option, or try and transfer to Derby.

 

[HH]

Why not ?

Because you want several staff on board for customer service and you don't have many stops. Really there's no big efficiency saving to make.

 

[thenorthern]

What is likely to happen to Crewe to Derby as there seems to hardly be any mention of it in on the DfT documents. Given that it runs though three regions (East Midlands, West Midlands and North West) and only Derby, Peartree and just about Tutbury and Hatton are in the East Midlands I have generally noticed that its never been a main priority of East Midlands Trains as they prefer to focus on other parts of the region where they have the councils lobbying for better services.

I know that people bash them but Central Trains seem to run it a lot better as back then there were through trains from Manchester Airport to Nottingham and beyond. It also had shiny new Class 170s which at the time were straight off the production line. Today its run by Class 153 trains many of which are overcrowded and its not uncommon for passengers to have to be left behind because there is no space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least the single 153 issue (wherever it occurs - there are very few lines suited to sole 153 operation at all times of day) will soon be solved by the fact that they are not usefully RVAR convertible.

 

[tbtc]

The “Northern” and “Wales’n’Borders” franchises have a lot of political clout behind them, so the “no growth” aspect gets complained about a lot. The East Midlands franchise seems to have been set up on similarly parsimonious terms, but without the same level of attention.

You could even argue that the poor divorce settlement (from Central Trains days) dealt EMT with a worse fleet than the area had had, so EMT’s initial situation was poorer than the “Northern”/ “Wales’n’Borders” franchises (who at least inherited all of the stock that operated their routes – whereas from day one EMT were running shorter trains due to the three coach 170s going to LM/XC meaning the Liverpool – Norwich service was downgraded to two coaches).

However Stagecoach have managed the situation that they inherited well. Whilst they’ve been dependent upon cascades from elsewhere (FGW 180s to Hull releasing a handful of short 222s, LM 150s to Manchester releasing a handful of 156s)…

…and have lost almost as many coaches as they’ve gained (given the length of the HSTs that moved to the ECML)…

…they’ve managed to double the length of Liverpool – Nottingham services, increase the frequency to Matlock, double the frequency of Nottingham – Lincoln services and take on the London – Corby service (whilst refurbishing the 158s to a decent standard despite not having a huge fleet to facilitate units being out of use for long periods).

Pretty impressive considering how little they’ve had to work with. So I’d be happy if Stagecoach continued in operation, though I have no idea of the quality of each bid – I’m not such a blinkered fanboy that I’d prefer a weaker bid to win.

Initiatives like 222s to Liverpool on Grand National weekends, HSTs to Lincoln Market in December/ Skegness in the summer at least show willing – the kind of integrated approach that we would take for granted in an ideal world but is much better than many TOCs manage.

There’s still work to do. Four coaches quickly filled up on the Liverpool – Nottingham services (some are still two coaches, like the 16:40ish that I got back from Nottingham last week, which looked horribly full departing Sheffield an hour later). Hopefully the SWT 158/159s will come on the market before long.

I don’t see the point in running 185s on Liverpool – Nottingham, unless you shift the franchise boundaries to run this service in the same TOC as the parallel Manchester Airport – Cleethorpes route (I can see the logic in one TOC running doubled up 185s on all Hope Valley expresses, I can see that neither route fits neatly into TPE/EMT, I can see that there may be economies of scale in running both from the same Manchester depot that has handled 185s for some time, I have no opinion over whether that TOC be EMT or TPE though).

I’m not bothered about through services to Norwich or not – there are pros and cons – if you want to have “cross Nottingham” links then I think that people in Sheffield would value at least some through service to Skegness in summer months (even if just a token HST from Neville Hill at weekends in the school holidays).

The Lincolnshire services all have average speeds of under 60mph, so I could see the argument for 230s replacing the 153s there (given the length of time you’d need to take a 153 out of operation to upgrade it, the cost of doing so to single coach trains, the disproportionate reduction in seating to provide a universal toilet etc).

Could you run the ex-Central Trains services with just 230s and 158s? It’d make things a lot simpler. The design of the 230s (where the parts that need maintenance are located in one removable section) would lend themselves to rural operation – i.e. they could run to Barton or Skegness for days at a time without needing to return to “base”. Just send someone over in a van to swap components and fuel them up – rather than running long ECS back to a home depot.

Service enhancements? Only three/ hour from Derby to Nottingham seems quite lightweight (with a half hour gap at times), considering the size of the places and the popular/frequent coach service). But then is that a responsibility for XC or for EMT to address?

Boston to Peterborough seems a neglected market (no through trains, poor connections, it can take at least an hour and a half to do a journey that is only around thirty miles for crows) – not everything needs to run all the way through to Skegness. You'd only need a couple of extra DMUs to transform frequencies in Lincolnshire.

Just a general beefing up of the Lincolnshire services would be good, though this will depend on subsidies and signal boxes. How do you move towards clockface times when you are dependent upon school traffic? On infrequent routes, is it better to have a timetable that’s easy to remember or one focussed on good peak time arrivals/ departures? Is it better to give the Lincoln – Grimsby and Lincoln – Doncaster lines a service based around local commuters or one based on long distance connections (at Doncaster/ Newark)?

Crewe to Nottingham is an idea that gets raised quite often – though I appreciate the problem of reversals at Derby.

For me, the XC Turbostar routes would sit better with EMT, but I can see the reasons why they aren’t (complications of another TOC at New Street, cutting the Cardiff link, minimising terminating services at New Street etc). Not a priority I guess.

The ex-Midland Mainline services are harder to predict, I suppose a lot depends on how soon electrification is expected to reach Sheffield (in terms of what stock to order/ how long to wait until you go fully electric).

Is it worth having a microfleet of 100mph EMUs for Corby services (if you aren’t ordering electric-capable trains for London – Leicester services in the short term)? Would it be easier to use the same 125mph electric-capable trains to Corby? Does Corby even need 100mph? Would a 125mph 800-equivalent get there any faster than a 100mph 377-equivalent? If the latter then would the route sit better as part of TSGN (not an extension of Thameslink, no 700s, but using the same stock as we’ll see on the Great Northern for peak extras). I really don’t know.

Something like an 800 would be nice on the MML, but how do you balance the need for long trains with the short platforms at Long Eaton/ Beeston/ Loughborough etc? If MML platforms can’t take 10x26m trains then any five coach 800 is wasting capacity at the busiest stations (i.e. 5x26m means you’d need to either run some 10x26m services unless you come up with some convoluted portion working… SDO is acceptable in circumstances like the one HST a day on a rural line but really not ideal on regular services).

 

[Qwerty133]

The “Northern” and “Wales’n’Borders” franchises have a lot of political clout behind them, so the “no growth” aspect gets complained about a lot. The East Midlands franchise seems to have been set up on similarly parsimonious terms, but without the same level of attention.

You could even argue that the poor divorce settlement (from Central Trains days) dealt EMT with a worse fleet than the area had had, so EMT’s initial situation was poorer than the “Northern”/ “Wales’n’Borders” franchises (who at least inherited all of the stock that operated their routes – whereas from day one EMT were running shorter trains due to the three coach 170s going to LM/XC meaning the Liverpool – Norwich service was downgraded to two coaches).

However Stagecoach have managed the situation that they inherited well. Whilst they’ve been dependent upon cascades from elsewhere (FGW 180s to Hull releasing a handful of short 222s, LM 150s to Manchester releasing a handful of 156s)…

…and have lost almost as many coaches as they’ve gained (given the length of the HSTs that moved to the ECML)…

…they’ve managed to double the length of Liverpool – Nottingham services, increase the frequency to Matlock, double the frequency of Nottingham – Lincoln services and take on the London – Corby service (whilst refurbishing the 158s to a decent standard despite not having a huge fleet to facilitate units being out of use for long periods).

Pretty impressive considering how little they’ve had to work with. So I’d be happy if Stagecoach continued in operation, though I have no idea of the quality of each bid – I’m not such a blinkered fanboy that I’d prefer a weaker bid to win.

Initiatives like 222s to Liverpool on Grand National weekends, HSTs to Lincoln Market in December/ Skegness in the summer at least show willing – the kind of integrated approach that we would take for granted in an ideal world but is much better than many TOCs manage.

There’s still work to do. Four coaches quickly filled up on the Liverpool – Nottingham services (some are still two coaches, like the 16:40ish that I got back from Nottingham last week, which looked horribly full departing Sheffield an hour later). Hopefully the SWT 158/159s will come on the market before long.

I don’t see the point in running 185s on Liverpool – Nottingham, unless you shift the franchise boundaries to run this service in the same TOC as the parallel Manchester Airport – Cleethorpes route (I can see the logic in one TOC running doubled up 185s on all Hope Valley expresses, I can see that neither route fits neatly into TPE/EMT, I can see that there may be economies of scale in running both from the same Manchester depot that has handled 185s for some time, I have no opinion over whether that TOC be EMT or TPE though).

I’m not bothered about through services to Norwich or not – there are pros and cons – if you want to have “cross Nottingham” links then I think that people in Sheffield would value at least some through service to Skegness in summer months (even if just a token HST from Neville Hill at weekends in the school holidays).

The Lincolnshire services all have average speeds of under 60mph, so I could see the argument for 230s replacing the 153s there (given the length of time you’d need to take a 153 out of operation to upgrade it, the cost of doing so to single coach trains, the disproportionate reduction in seating to provide a universal toilet etc).

Could you run the ex-Central Trains services with just 230s and 158s? It’d make things a lot simpler. The design of the 230s (where the parts that need maintenance are located in one removable section) would lend themselves to rural operation – i.e. they could run to Barton or Skegness for days at a time without needing to return to “base”. Just send someone over in a van to swap components and fuel them up – rather than running long ECS back to a home depot.

Service enhancements? Only three/ hour from Derby to Nottingham seems quite lightweight (with a half hour gap at times), considering the size of the places and the popular/frequent coach service). But then is that a responsibility for XC or for EMT to address?

Boston to Peterborough seems a neglected market (no through trains, poor connections, it can take at least an hour and a half to do a journey that is only around thirty miles for crows) – not everything needs to run all the way through to Skegness. You'd only need a couple of extra DMUs to transform frequencies in Lincolnshire.

Just a general beefing up of the Lincolnshire services would be good, though this will depend on subsidies and signal boxes. How do you move towards clockface times when you are dependent upon school traffic? On infrequent routes, is it better to have a timetable that’s easy to remember or one focussed on good peak time arrivals/ departures? Is it better to give the Lincoln – Grimsby and Lincoln – Doncaster lines a service based around local commuters or one based on long distance connections (at Doncaster/ Newark)?

Crewe to Nottingham is an idea that gets raised quite often – though I appreciate the problem of reversals at Derby.

For me, the XC Turbostar routes would sit better with EMT, but I can see the reasons why they aren’t (complications of another TOC at New Street, cutting the Cardiff link, minimising terminating services at New Street etc). Not a priority I guess.

The ex-Midland Mainline services are harder to predict, I suppose a lot depends on how soon electrification is expected to reach Sheffield (in terms of what stock to order/ how long to wait until you go fully electric).

Is it worth having a microfleet of 100mph EMUs for Corby services (if you aren’t ordering electric-capable trains for London – Leicester services in the short term)? Would it be easier to use the same 125mph electric-capable trains to Corby? Does Corby even need 100mph? Would a 125mph 800-equivalent get there any faster than a 100mph 377-equivalent? If the latter then would the route sit better as part of TSGN (not an extension of Thameslink, no 700s, but using the same stock as we’ll see on the Great Northern for peak extras). I really don’t know.

Something like an 800 would be nice on the MML, but how do you balance the need for long trains with the short platforms at Long Eaton/ Beeston/ Loughborough etc? If MML platforms can’t take 10x26m trains then any five coach 800 is wasting capacity at the busiest stations (i.e. 5x26m means you’d need to either run some 10x26m services unless you come up with some convoluted portion working… SDO is acceptable in circumstances like the one HST a day on a rural line but really not ideal on regular services).

The fast line platforms at Loughborough can take full length HSTs. Unless the 230s can work in multiple they would be unsuitable for Skegness services and 60MPH top speeds would make them unsuitable for Derby-Crewe. I'm personally in the view that it may be worth Beeston losing direct services to London (as long as good connections into London trains are available at East Midlands parkway). Corby probably doesn't need 125 MPH stock but almost certainly needs 100MPH if not 110MPH but I do agree that it would be better off in the TSGN franchise as it definitely does not require intercity units.

 

[northwichcat]

The “Northern” and “Wales’n’Borders” franchises have a lot of political clout behind them, so the “no growth” aspect gets complained about a lot. The East Midlands franchise seems to have been set up on similarly parsimonious terms, but without the same level of attention.

You could even argue that the poor divorce settlement (from Central Trains days) dealt EMT with a worse fleet than the area had had, so EMT’s initial situation was poorer than the “Northern”/ “Wales’n’Borders” franchises (who at least inherited all of the stock that operated their routes – whereas from day one EMT were running shorter trains due to the three coach 170s going to LM/XC meaning the Liverpool – Norwich service was downgraded to two coaches).

It's worth remembering that some of the additional 158s allocated to Northern were used to provide a second hourly service between Sheffield and Nottingham, which means there are usually 6 x 23m carriages operating between Sheffield and Nottingham every hour when in CT days it was usually 3 or 4.

While I accept what you say about EMT problems not getting as much publicity as other TOC problems, in the early days of the EMT franchise one of the biggest problems was the number of people trying to use EMT services to get to/from Warrington at peak times. When you consider Warrington was also affected by the ATW no-growth, the Northern no-growth, the TPE 185 lengthening not going ahead and was one of the few losers of the WCML recast in 2008 (the frequency of services between Warrington and Crewe was halved as a result of the recast.) I feel Warrington has got overlooked a lot.

 

[anti-pacer]

Of course new stock is suddenly unviable as soon as there are no franchises around London being let...
Time and time again the midlands gets left behind because it has neither the political power of the south east or whining power of the north and scotland.

So how do you explain all the new(ish) units running around Birmingham and on the Trent Valley Line?

The EAST Midlands may have been left behind, but until new units arrive I would say EMT has "generally" better stock than Northern.

Us whining Northerners have had to put up with 3 decades of Pacers, you haven't. Northern also covers 3 regions with a total population of about 15m people, plus the services it operates into the Midlands. The EAST Midlands has a population of about 5m with less financial clout than the North West, about the same as Yorkshire, and more than the North East. This seems to be reflected certainly in the investment in the railways up here, so it's probably the same reason the West Midlands has fared better than the East.

 

[northwichcat]

If Nottingham-Cardiff and Birmingham-Leicester-Stansted were operated by EMT using 170s and Liverpool-Norwich was operated by XC using refurbished 158s, would there be less complaints about the age of DMUs in the East Midlands?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Corby probably doesn't need 125 MPH stock but almost certainly needs 100MPH if not 110MPH but I do agree that it would be better off in the TSGN franchise as it definitely does not require intercity units.

How do you reach that conclusion, especially given that much of the 125 mph running is south of Kettering!

 

[Roast Veg]

In the same way the 110mph TL stock interweaves with the EMT services at present?

 

[43096]

In the same way the 110mph TL stock interweaves with the EMT services at present?

What 110mph TL stock?

 

[g22]

East Midlands Councils are reporting that the DFT are saying that the Consultation on the franchise is likely to start in the week beginning 8th May 2017 and last for 8 weeks.

 

[317 forever]

I'm not really sure why anyone wants this. Whoever gets it will be faced with the task of finding a significant number of trains that are or upgrading trains to DDA standard in 9 months. As far as I can remember only the 222's currently meet DDA and there are only plans in place for the 158s leaving 17 153s, 15 156s and some HSTs that will be in urgent need of an upgrade or replacement, at a scale that is probably impossible in the time available, as without this the franchise will literally not have enough stock to operate services.

Maybe the winner can "do an Abellio" and promise to replace the entire fleet?

 

[317 forever]

My view would be that Stagecoach have done a good job with EMT, are known to have done a good job with SWT and are also respected as, probably, the most professional bus operator. I certainly don't want to see First/Trenitalia win this franchise.

Nor me. Given that First albeit in partnership with MTR have just won SWT off Stagecoach, it would be a pity to see a similar partnership between First & TrenItalia win EMT off Stagecoach too.

Also, Arriva already have 5 franchises, which is sufficient all things considered.

 

[HH]

Nor me. Given that First albeit in partnership with MTR have just won SWT off Stagecoach, it would be a pity to see a similar partnership between First & TrenItalia win EMT off Stagecoach too.

Also, Arriva already have 5 franchises, which is sufficient all things considered.

Are you a Stagecoach shareholder or something? The franchise will probably go to whoever has the best bid. On recent showing Stagecoach will come last.

 

[317 forever]

Are you a Stagecoach shareholder or something? The franchise will probably go to whoever has the best bid. On recent showing Stagecoach will come last.

Obviously Stagecoach have just lost SWT. You sound aware that Stagecoach have lost quite a few London bus tenders too.

 

[HH]

Bidding is an art form. From what I hear Stagecoach have lost several of their "artists" for one reason or another and also things move on. This is why winning tends to come in cycles - a bid team discovers a winning formula and win a few before others catch up or the goalposts are moved. Sometimes bidders are slow to catch on that they need to change; I'd put Stagecoach into that camp currently. Success has bred complacency.