East Midlands Franchise competition

[HH]

Of course new stock is suddenly unviable as soon as there are no franchises around London being let...
Time and time again the midlands gets left behind because it has neither the political power of the south east or whining power of the north and scotland.

The £ has dropped in value since the Brexit vote which has increased all import costs, including most raw materials; plus the forward look for interest rates has worsened. I think you'll find that London (and Scotland) voted solidly to remain while the Midlands voted overwhelmingly to leave. You might therefore think that this damage is self-inflicted, but I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[HH]

Their route restrictions (can't even do HST speeds!) are horrific, so they'd be a pain in the arse for many operators.

Yes; and there are other issues too - there are no gangways between units, making them unsuitable for some services, and the fleet is too small (you'd end up with a fleet mix, which is inefficient). I doubt that the option required much thought to boot into touch.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem SWT has with its sprinters is that they don't firm into nice 10 coach trains easily. As such I would agree with the above, but possibly with them being 5 coach units. It would mean a slight reduction in capacity over a 6 coach train formed of 2*159's when they run on their own, but could allow every peak hour train to be 10 coaches and some of the very busy services would have to be 10 coaches. Based on a similar layout to a 444 with ASDO it would have the potential to be quite a well liked train.

Well 5 coaches with 2 cabs wouldn't necessarily be a big reduction in capacity over a 6 car formation with 4 or 6 cabs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem SWT has with its sprinters is that they don't firm into nice 10 coach trains easily.

As they *are* Sprinters, on which coaches all have all the essential equipment (other than cabs on the middle coaches) and operate essentially independently, if that actually bothered them they could reform them into lengths (say 4s and 2s) that would enable that if they wanted.

 

[northwichcat]

The £ has dropped in value since the Brexit vote which has increased all import costs, including most raw materials; plus the forward look for interest rates has worsened. I think you'll find that London (and Scotland) voted solidly to remain while the Midlands voted overwhelmingly to leave. You might therefore think that this damage is self-inflicted, but I couldn't possibly comment.

Many lines go through both leave and remain areas. I'm not sure how the East Midlands breaks down was but closer to home I'm aware that Piccadilly to Alderley Edge and Piccadilly to Macclesfield services serve mainly areas which voted to Remain but the Crewe and Stoke areas voted mainly to Leave, so would it be fair to have new CAF trains on the trains which turn back at Alderley Edge and Macclesfield and trains from the 1980s on services which extend to Stoke and Crewe?

 

[eastdyke]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142671

Thank you very much for the link.

A few welcome extra Sunday journeys for me from 21st May!

 

[43096]

As they *are* Sprinters, on which coaches all have all the essential equipment (other than cabs on the middle coaches) and operate essentially independently, if that actually bothered them they could reform them into lengths (say 4s and 2s) that would enable that if they wanted.

Indeed and SWT already run 10 car formations, using 2x159 and 2x158. I really don't see what the issue is!

 

[Mollman]

Many lines go through both leave and remain areas. I'm not sure how the East Midlands breaks down was but closer to home I'm aware that Piccadilly to Alderley Edge and Piccadilly to Macclesfield services serve mainly areas which voted to Remain but the Crewe and Stoke areas voted mainly to Leave, so would it be fair to have new CAF trains on the trains which turn back at Alderley Edge and Macclesfield and trains from the 1980s on services which extend to Stoke and Crewe?

Just wait for the political explosion if the new EMT franchise doesn't order anything from Derby.

In regards to the map of services I am surprised the Skegy services aren't linked to the other Birmingham - Nottingham service which won't go through to Lincoln.

 

[ag51ruk]

There is also an opportunity to add Sunday morning services on the Derby - Crewe line, once it is resignalled (first trains are after 14.00 at the moment). That would also be a welcome improvement.

 

[The Ham]

Indeed and SWT already run 10 car formations, using 2x159 and 2x158. I really don't see what the issue is!

The issue is that they don't run enough in that configuration and they can't run more as they don't have enough units. The issue goes away (and others such as EM then can use the current SWT fleet) if they are replaced by a new type of self powered unit, the issue could become less of an issue if the new unit was 5 coaches long as then there would only need to be two units to run a full length service.

They would also tally up with the rest of the 23m coach units that SWT has, which would make it simpler for working out numbers of services. It potentially could be more helpful going forward once electrification reaches Salisbury in that every service to or through Salisbury has the same capacity regardless of what it is. It could even be possible that the new units could work in pairs with the 444s where there is electrical power, which could mean that such pairings could allow through services without too much complication, even if a 444 has to be substituted due to a fault with another unit. (i.e. service to Exeter is scheduled to be 2x bimodal units when it is found that one has a failure, rather than run a single unit out of Waterloo in the evening peak a 444 is used between Waterloo and Basingstoke meaning that the short form is for a much sorter section of the journey than it would otherwise would have been, it could even be that people only have to stand between Basingstoke and Andover, meaning that they are standing for less than 20 minutes).

Of course SWT could carry on using a mix of 2 and 3 coach trains with all that goes with that, but then a bimodal 5 coach units give you a lot more space to work with in fitting all the kit needed in than a 2 coach unit or even a 3 coach unit. Its not like a 5 coach bimodal unit would be short of work going forwards if they then need to leave SWT at a later date.

 

[Qwerty133]

The issue is that they don't run enough in that configuration and they can't run more as they don't have enough units. The issue goes away (and others such as EM then can use the current SWT fleet) if they are replaced by a new type of self powered unit, the issue could become less of an issue if the new unit was 5 coaches long as then there would only need to be two units to run a full length service.

They would also tally up with the rest of the 23m coach units that SWT has, which would make it simpler for working out numbers of services. It potentially could be more helpful going forward once electrification reaches Salisbury in that every service to or through Salisbury has the same capacity regardless of what it is. It could even be possible that the new units could work in pairs with the 444s where there is electrical power, which could mean that such pairings could allow through services without too much complication, even if a 444 has to be substituted due to a fault with another unit. (i.e. service to Exeter is scheduled to be 2x bimodal units when it is found that one has a failure, rather than run a single unit out of Waterloo in the evening peak a 444 is used between Waterloo and Basingstoke meaning that the short form is for a much sorter section of the journey than it would otherwise would have been, it could even be that people only have to stand between Basingstoke and Andover, meaning that they are standing for less than 20 minutes).

Of course SWT could carry on using a mix of 2 and 3 coach trains with all that goes with that, but then a bimodal 5 coach units give you a lot more space to work with in fitting all the kit needed in than a 2 coach unit or even a 3 coach unit. Its not like a 5 coach bimodal unit would be short of work going forwards if they then need to leave SWT at a later date.

Alternatively the EMT franchise could receive brand new trains and SWT receive their 158s and their 156s being cascaded elsewhere with the 153s going for scrap...

 

[Kneedown]

I think you'll find that London (and Scotland) voted solidly to remain while the Midlands voted overwhelmingly to leave. You might therefore think that this damage is self-inflicted, but I couldn't possibly comment.

Because the East Midlands certainly got pots of money for rail investment, compared to London and Scotland, prior to the referendum!

 

[Domh245]

Just wait for the political explosion if the new EMT franchise doesn't order anything from Derby.

Might be difficult seeing as Derby seem to be only offering pure EMUs at the moment

 

[northwichcat]

Because the East Midlands certainly got pots of money for rail investment, compared to London and Scotland, prior to the referendum!

East Midlands voters had rail as a top priority for the referendum? Everywhere else immigration and the cost of living were the top priorities!

While some people might have thought of the plant belonging to a German subsidiary of a Canadian multi-national in Derby, it's possible that if more plants open in the UK, that the appeal of Derby will be much less. They wouldn't be able to use 'jobs for British workers' as their main selling point.

 

[class26]

East Midlands voters had rail as a top priority for the referendum? Everywhere else immigration and the cost of living were the top priorities!

While some people might have thought of the plant belonging to a German subsidiary of a Canadian multi-national in Derby, it's possible that if more plants open in the UK, that the appeal of Derby will be much less. They wouldn't be able to use 'jobs for British workers' as their main selling point.

I think the comment was to be ironic !

 

[northwichcat]

I think the comment was to be ironic !

Yes I know it was actually implying they go no investment before Brexit but why would voting for Brexit result in them getting investment?

 

[Qwerty133]

Yes I know it was actually implying they go no investment before Brexit but why would voting for Brexit result in them getting investment?

I think he was saying that Brexit is just the lastest in a long line of excuses not to invest in rail in the East Midlands.
Ironically if said line started in Derby it would probably be long enough to reach mainline europe.

 

[Kneedown]

I don't personally think that Brexit has anything to do with it, although some in power may try to use it as an excuse.
It was implied that "Brexit voting areas" may reaping what they voted for in terms of less investment compared to remain voting London and Scotland. I was merely pointing out that we didn't get much investment before the referendum either. That's all.

 

[LowLevel]

There is also an opportunity to add Sunday morning services on the Derby - Crewe line, once it is resignalled (first trains are after 14.00 at the moment). That would also be a welcome improvement.

This isn't happening any time soon, the latest resignalling proposal, as far as we are aware, has been cancelled again for lack of funds.

 

[edwin_m]

At least there seems to be a reasonable last train from Crewe now - although with a big gap before it. Not many years ago the last departure was about 1910.

 

[HH]

Alternatively the EMT franchise could receive brand new trains and SWT receive their 158s and their 156s being cascaded elsewhere with the 153s going for scrap...

The SWT contest is nearly complete, so it can't possibly be taking trains resulting from a competition that has yet to run.

 

[HH]

Because the East Midlands certainly got pots of money for rail investment, compared to London and Scotland, prior to the referendum!

Investment usually comes with a change of franchise. And until the latest competition the Midlands (e.g. with Class 222s) had fared better than the North, Wales, East Anglia, etc. etc. Try removing that chip on your shoulder and that mote from your eye.

 

[Grimsby town]

Investment usually comes with a change of franchise. And until the latest competition the Midlands (e.g. with Class 222s) had fared better than the North, Wales, East Anglia, etc. etc. Try removing that chip on your shoulder and that mote from your eye.

Yes but the East Midlands Franchise isn't just the London service that has 222's. The local services have been treated far worse than any of the other franchises apart from maybe northern.

 

[43074]

Yes but the East Midlands Franchise isn't just the London service that has 222's. The local services have been treated far worse than any of the other franchises apart from maybe northern.

Actually I don't think the local side is that bad all things considered, they were dealt a bad hand by the DfT when the franchise was let (such as allocating all of the 170s to the West Midlands), but on the whole I think EMT have done a good job at turning the local side around - Matlock became hourly in 2008, Nottingham to Newark has been doubled to 2tph, there are improvements to Sunday services coming in May, the trains have all been refurbished, Sundays are fairly reliable these days, many stations have been smartened up etc. Improvements are needed, but they're bigger things like clockface timetabling across Lincolnshire and better rolling stock.

The XC inter-urban services (Stansted - Birmingham & Nottingham - Cardiff) are the ones which haven't changed at all in the past decade, despite massive growth since 2007 and overcrowding which occurs on a regular basis. It's more consistent than it used to be but in many ways it still feels like Central Trains.

 

[Grimsby town]

Actually I don't think the local side is that bad all things considered, they were dealt a bad hand by the DfT when the franchise was let (such as allocating all of the 170s to the West Midlands), but on the whole I think EMT have done a good job at turning the local side around - Matlock became hourly in 2008, Nottingham to Newark has been doubled to 2tph, there are improvements to Sunday services coming in May, the trains have all been refurbished, Sundays are fairly reliable these days, many stations have been smartened up etc. Improvements are needed, but they're bigger things like clockface timetabling across Lincolnshire and better rolling stock.

The XC inter-urban services (Stansted - Birmingham & Nottingham - Cardiff) are the ones which haven't changed at all in the past decade, despite massive growth since 2007 and overcrowding which occurs on a regular basis. It's more consistent than it used to be but in many ways it still feels like Central Trains.

I agree they have done an ok job with the hand they were dealt with but the problem lies in that what they were given was so bad that even running the service to a high standard means they are significantly worse than most comparable services in the UK.

Most services in Lincolnshire aren't run at anything like regular clockface intervals and as you say Skegness services, Grimsby to Newark and Derbyshire to Crew went from 170's and 158's to 153's and 156's.

The Matlock has seen improvements but up to the last year or two (with the Newark service) its been the exception to the rule as most of the local services being sacrificed for the good of the Liverpool to Norwhich service.

 

[Qwerty133]

I agree they have done an ok job with the hand they were dealt with but the problem lies in that what they were given was so bad that even running the service to a high standard means they are significantly worse than most comparable services in the UK.

Most services in Lincolnshire aren't run at anything like regular clockface intervals and as you say Skegness services, Grimsby to Newark and Derbyshire to Crew went from 170's and 158's to 153's and 156's.

The Matlock has seen improvements but up to the last year or two (with the Newark service) its been the exception to the rule as most of the local services being sacrificed for the good of the Liverpool to Norwhich service.

Stagecoach have strategically focussed resources on Liverpool-Norwich to try and reduce the chance that the service will be split at Nottingham, despite this in many ways, if it allows for stock to be moved around onto other EMT service, actually being beneficial to rail in the east midlands.

 

[Grimsby town]

Stagecoach have strategically focussed resources on Liverpool-Norwich to try and reduce the chance that the service will be split at Nottingham, despite this in many ways, if it allows for stock to be moved around onto other EMT service, actually being beneficial to rail in the east midlands.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have done that. In fact I'm not criticising EMT themselves but the poster I originally quoted was stating how the East Midlands doesn't have it that bad but if you look at some routes stature (such as Lincoln to Nottingham even with it's recent improvements, Grimsby to Newark and Derby to Crew) you probably won't find any similar services that are currently in a worse state.

 

[HowardGWR]

A colleague of ours, Altnabreac, has given us a very useful guide to what would justify a semi-rural local service that would justify a line re-opening. It should, he maintains include a city to which folk would commute, for instance.

In the case of services through Derby and Nottingham from east to west, what would justify an inter-city service on top of local services? Typically, if an inter-city service does not end up in London, it would seem difficult to justify high speed and comfort elsewhere, yet if today you went from Nottingham to London and tomorrow from Nottingham to Manchester, as a businessman, you would expect the same standard of speed and comfort. However, typically, the service provided may not be a through one, it would not have comfort and would try to do two jobs at once, local and inter-city.

What could be justified on these East Midland routes?

 

[bunnahabhain]

In regards to the map of services I am surprised the Skegy services aren't linked to the other Birmingham - Nottingham service which won't go through to Lincoln.

Skegness is not the ideal route to extend beyond Nottingham due to the summer strengthening that takes place. Its reduces complications and keeps the sets captive meaning you can concentrate units like 156s on them with their large luggage areas. As opposed to 153s and 158s where you usually end up having to use multiple pairs of seats for the stowage of luggage.

 

[Kneedown]

Investment usually comes with a change of franchise. And until the latest competition the Midlands (e.g. with Class 222s) had fared better than the North, Wales, East Anglia, etc. etc. Try removing that chip on your shoulder and that mote from your eye.

No chip on the shoulder my friend, just simple fact. Working on the local side, that's where the majority of the observations come from, and while EMT have done the best with the hand dealt them, it falls well short of the resources available to any of the three franchises you refer to, all of which operate more modern rolling stock than EMT local. 323's, 333's, 195's on order, 170's, 175's, 67's and stock for instance?