East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[Iskra]

Well they don't use a buffet anymore, and the trolley is staffed by Rail gourmet, who don't turn up half the time.
Some of the fares are ridiculously priced, and I can never find the mystery "cheap first advances," from my experience they don't offer any advances in first at all, unlike most other operators.
And the standard advances aren't particularly cheap either.
The state of their trains is appalling, apparently it is acceptable to regularly turn out trains with ripped seats.
The condition of their stations isn't great tbh either.

Basically they aren't a disaster like GTR or Northern, but nothing to shout home about.

That's essentially what I said in post 442; decent but uninspiring.

You must be doing something wrong. Cheap advances are ten a penny outside of the peaks, I've had loads of £20ish 1st class advances down to London and back. I even got one in June at £16 I think. Even my sister manages to find them and you can write what she knows about trains on a postage stamp.

I disagree on the internal state of their trains. I've almost always found them clean and pleasant. They are a lot better than Northern, XC and TPE (pre refurb).

Sheffield isn't my favourite station, but I'm not sure I can blame EMT for the problems it has.

 

[yorksrob]

Well they don't use a buffet anymore, and the trolley is staffed by Rail gourmet, who don't turn up half the time.
Some of the fares are ridiculously priced, and I can never find the mystery "cheap first advances," from my experience they don't offer any advances in first at all, unlike most other operators.
And the standard advances aren't particularly cheap either.
The state of their trains is appalling, apparently it is acceptable to regularly turn out trains with ripped seats.
The condition of their stations isn't great tbh either.

That's pretty much the opposite of my experience of them.

 

[yorksrob]

Sheffield isn't my favourite station, but I'm not sure I can blame EMT for the problems it has.

I rather like Sheffield !

 

[cactustwirly]

That's essentially what I said in post 442; decent but uninspiring.

You must be doing something wrong. Cheap advances are ten a penny outside of the peaks, I've had loads of £20ish 1st class advances down to London and back. I even got one in June at £16 I think. Even my sister manages to find them and you can write what she knows about trains on a postage stamp.

I disagree on the internal state of their trains. I've almost always found them clean and pleasant. They are a lot better than Northern, XC and TPE (pre refurb).

Sheffield isn't my favourite station, but I'm not sure I can blame EMT for the problems it has.

No I'm not, they're not available for advances beyond St Pancras.
The Meridians and 156s are in an awful condition, with Meridians regularly turned out with ripped seats, and the 156s are very dirty between the seats and very worn interiors and suspension.
Whilst they are far from perfect, GWR are superior in many ways.

 

[tbtc]

Stagecoach have been absolutely useless a terrible 10yrs compared to the midland mainline days

The East Midlands franchise has done nothing positive. No new trains no forward thinking. It's basically done the minimum and taken as much money out as possible.

Exactly, what have Stagecoach ever done for us?

Other than the fifth path per hour out of St Pancras.

And the 222s from Hull Trains.

And the 156s from Northern.

And the HSTs from Grand Central.

And doubling the Sheffield - London service to half hourly.

And increasing the service to Matlock and Newark Castle.

And doubling capacity of the Nottingham - Liverpool services.

And giving Lincoln its first post-privatisation service to London.

And the Megabus/Megatrain link at East Midlands Parkway (that opened up new markets).

And running HSTs to Skegness (summer holidays) and Lincoln (Christmas market), with 222s to Liverpool (Grand National).

...but, apart from that, what have Stagecoach ever done for us?

considering Arriva did little more than B**ger all with the Wales franchise be careful what you wish for!

Arriva have done what the franchise committed them to - I wouldn't say that they beggered anything up - they delivered what they promised.

On a heavily subsidised TOC like Wales & Borders, no company is going to spend lavishly on things above and beyond the terms of the contract.

Yes, they could have doubled frequencies and whatnot, but they weren't committed to do that - I don't think we can really say that the "beggered" up the franchise.

They're really not that bad, on the whole the trains are clean and the service is reliable, they get the basics right. The issues are either largely down to DfT when the franchise was specified in 2007 or there's no incentive for Stagecoach to solve them at this stage. The network needs more capacity (Mainline and local services) but I'd say EMT have done a decent job given the hand they were dealt at the start of the franchise.

Agreed - Stagecoach have done what was required of them - they are running more services and operating more trains (with more seats) than they inherited - considering how bad a deal they got out of the post-Central Trains split (170s cascaded from Liverpool - Norwich to trundle around on the Chase line).

I'm not happy with some Sheffield - London services being four/five coach 222s (especially given how few Standard Class seats there are on such trains), but they've done well enough given what they inherited.

(they did get rid of the free tea and coffee that Midland Mainline offered, so maybe that's a deal-breaker to some people?)

 

[Robertj21a]

Stagecoach have been absolutely useless a terrible 10yrs compared to the midland mainline days. But first are as bad. I'd prefer a new start with arriva or Abellio

Not sure whether we're talking about the same line. I rather like Stagecoach operating the route and would be very happy to see them continue. Perhaps a few tweaks here and there under a new franchise but nothing really essential. Not sure why people get so worked up about food/drink on board when most people take their own anyway.

 

[Iskra]

No I'm not, they're not available for advances beyond St Pancras.
The Meridians and 156s are in an awful condition, with Meridians regularly turned out with ripped seats, and the 156s are very dirty between the seats and very worn interiors and suspension.
Whilst they are far from perfect, GWR are superior in many ways.

I've definitely had cheap advances from Sheffield to Luton Airport Parkway with EMT.

The 222's are in need of a refurb, yes. I think awful is a bit of an exaggeration. Their HST's, 158's and 153's are pretty good though, so on balance I can't agree with you.

GWR are good, but I went on one of their refurbished HST's and all the seat covers were stained already in STD, but am I going to let that cloud my opinion of their whole operation? No. Their tickets aren't exactly cheap either.

The MML has always been the under-dog of London-orientated TOC's, I think EMT have done as good a job as they could have. I feel like we need a poll though...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Exactly, what have Stagecoach ever done for us?

Other than the fifth path per hour out of St Pancras.

And the 222s from Hull Trains.

And the 156s from Northern.

And the HSTs from Grand Central.

And doubling the Sheffield - London service to half hourly.

And increasing the service to Matlock and Newark Castle.

And doubling capacity of the Nottingham - Liverpool services.

And giving Lincoln its first post-privatisation service to London.

And the Megabus/Megatrain link at East Midlands Parkway (that opened up new markets).

And running HSTs to Skegness (summer holidays) and Lincoln (Christmas market), with 222s to Liverpool (Grand National).

...but, apart from that, what have Stagecoach ever done for us?

brought us peace?

Arriva have done what the franchise committed them to - I wouldn't say that they beggered anything up - they delivered what they promised.

On a heavily subsidised TOC like Wales & Borders, no company is going to spend lavishly on things above and beyond the terms of the contract.

Yes, they could have doubled frequencies and whatnot, but they weren't committed to do that - I don't think we can really say that the "beggered" up the franchise.

I didn't say they'd beggared it up... I said they did beggar all... there are numerous cases where the demand has exploded well beyond the forecasts and yet Arriva have been quite happy to just leave the service levels the same... therefore raking in money {unless of course it is a cost contract meaning WAG keeps the revenue} In fact in the few instances where they have added extra trains/ capacity then it has been after long and hard campaigning... also they have been quite happy to refuse to invest in rolling stock, so, especially on the valleys lines we are left with sprinters and pacers aplenty... all groaning and desperately trying not to fall to bits... after all they are well beyond their design life now.

 

[Kneedown]

The government destroyed a good company in mml by merging it with services nobody wanted

I'm struggling to comprehend how merging MML and CT had a negative impact on MML services?
Sure, catering has been stripped right back but that's nothing whatsoever to do with incorporating the Eastern part of CT into the franchise. That would have happened anyway!
It was the correct decision IMO. As I said in the Franchise shake up thread, I believe all Intercity routes should have their share of local routes incorporated to spread the profits and risks more evenly.

 

[cactustwirly]

I've definitely had cheap advances from Sheffield to Luton Airport Parkway with EMT.

The 222's are in need of a refurb, yes. I think awful is a bit of an exaggeration. Their HST's, 158's and 153's are pretty good though, so on balance I can't agree with you.

GWR are good, but I went on one of their refurbished HST's and all the seat covers were stained already in STD, but am I going to let that cloud my opinion of their whole operation? No. Their tickets aren't exactly cheap either.

The MML has always been the under-dog of London-orientated TOC's, I think EMT have done as good a job as they could have. I feel like we need a poll though...

See, only standard advance tiers, not very cheap ones either.
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=LEI&dest=MAI

 

[DDB]

I'm struggling to comprehend how merging MML and CT had a negative impact on MML services?
Sure, catering has been stripped right back but that's nothing whatsoever to do with incorporating the Eastern part of CT into the franchise. That would have happened anyway!
It was the correct decision IMO. As I said in the Franchise shake up thread, I believe all Intercity routes should have their share of local routes incorporated to spread the profits and risks more evenly.

I agree, my pet theory about what makes a good franchise regardless of who runs it is a mix of local and long distance services that therefore allows the long distance trains to be used at the weekends to boost capacity for irregular leisure services such as

Exactly, what have Stagecoach ever done for us?

And running HSTs to Skegness (summer holidays) and Lincoln (Christmas market), with 222s to Liverpool (Grand National).

DDB

 

[Kite159]

See, only standard advance tiers, not very cheap ones either.
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=LEI&dest=MAI

And is there anything wrong with having to split in London from an EMT only advance to using a walk up fare for the final leg? After all it isn't like Maidenhead hasn't got 4 trains an hour from Paddington

 

[Stevec101]

Yes I do, but where did I say that wasn't the case?

You seemed to be giving EMT the credit for getting rid of 170s and the current use of 222s in their place? If you weren't then what was your point in bringing up the over crowded 170 2 car units and the fact tge public now have lovely 222s??

 

[cactustwirly]

And is there anything wrong with having to split in London from an EMT only advance to using a walk up fare for the final leg? After all it isn't like Maidenhead hasn't got 4 trains an hour from Paddington

Because a walk up fare to Paddington, would be a lot more expensive, since I would have to buy 2 singles due to the lack of a period return.
The peak restrictions would stop me from getting a train earlier than 11am, from St Pancras.

 

[cactustwirly]

You seemed to be giving EMT the credit for getting rid of 170s and the current use of 222s in their place? If you weren't then what was your point in bringing up the over crowded 170 2 car units and the fact tge public now have lovely 222s??

I never mentioned anything about 170s, perhaps you've got the wrong person?
Believew me it would take a bit more than 222s, for me to come to the defence of EMT

 

[Kite159]

Because a walk up fare to Paddington, would be a lot more expensive, since I would have to buy 2 singles due to the lack of a period return.
The peak restrictions would stop me from getting a train earlier than 11am, from St Pancras.

Maybe the lack of cheap advances is more to do with GWR not allowing them to be offered to other operators for that flow?

 

[Stevec101]

Exactly, what have Stagecoach ever done for us?

Other than the fifth path per hour out of St Pancras.

And the 222s from Hull Trains.

And the 156s from Northern.

And the HSTs from Grand Central.

And doubling the Sheffield - London service to half hourly.

And increasing the service to Matlock and Newark Castle.

And doubling capacity of the Nottingham - Liverpool services.

And giving Lincoln its first post-privatisation service to London.

And the Megabus/Megatrain link at East Midlands Parkway (that opened up new markets).

And running HSTs to Skegness (summer holidays) and Lincoln (Christmas market), with 222s to Liverpool (Grand National).

...but, apart from that, what have Stagecoach ever done for us?



Arriva have done what the franchise committed them to - I wouldn't say that they beggered anything up - they delivered what they promised.

On a heavily subsidised TOC like Wales & Borders, no company is going to spend lavishly on things above and beyond the terms of the contract.

Yes, they could have doubled frequencies and whatnot, but they weren't committed to do that - I don't think we can really say that the "beggered" up the franchise.



Agreed - Stagecoach have done what was required of them - they are running more services and operating more trains (with more seats) than they inherited - considering how bad a deal they got out of the post-Central Trains split (170s cascaded from Liverpool - Norwich to trundle around on the Chase line).

I'm not happy with some Sheffield - London services being four/five coach 222s (especially given how few Standard Class seats there are on such trains), but they've done well enough given what they inherited.

(they did get rid of the free tea and coffee that Midland Mainline offered, so maybe that's a deal-breaker to some people?)

If you've got shares in stagecoach then obviously you'll love them. They're great at returing a profit. They got lucky with the hull train cast off.

All other new trains have been the cheapest cast offs money can buy old redundant HSTs nobody else wants. 156s nobody wanted.

They've got no plan for what's happening with the HST fleet when all the doors are supposed to be automatic lol

The extra paths to anywhere are DFT ideas and requirements. They've seriously cut back on the performance available to 222s to save money.

They cut hundreds of jobs onboard and now having to recruit to return numbers back to previous levels.

Had no intention of keeping the buffer cars when they took over but found it wasn't possible to actually remove them without serious cost.

So Mr souter please move onto your next point

 

[sbd]

Cactuswirely spot on,

Cheers steve

 

[Skymonster]

Some of us remember the glory days when MML was among the best long distance TOCs in the country - in the early days under National Express. Stagecoach have driver the franchise into the ground, the lowest common denominator, which some might think isn't a bad thing but those of us who still reflect on how it could be (and was) done better are disappointed with. By far the worst aspect is the replacement of the buffets with Rail Gormless - a real retrograde step that introduced uncertainty of supply / delivery with less selection and higher prices.

The EMT stock is OK but that's about all you can say - the Meridians need urgent refurb and while the HSTs might seem reasonable at first glance they really need some work compared to other TOCs (no power points in standard, and first is nasty compared to the likes of GWR and East Coast). And if Nottingham City Transport can provide free wifi on buses, why the heck can't EMT do it on the trains. Ironically I actually think EMT's local / regional fleet comes closer in comparison wth similar vehicles elsewhere than does the rather woeful inter-city stock.

As to fares, it is a sad inditement on the current franchise holder that non time sensitive long distance travellers from the Derby area can get to London much cheaper via Tamworth while those from Leicester can connect at Nuneaton and make significant savings - admittedly those in Nottingham / Sheffield don't have such straight forward choices.

 

[yorksrob]

(no power points in standard, and first is nasty compared to the likes of GWR and East Coast).

First in their HST's is far more comfortable than Great Western and East Coast, it doesn't have gimmicky leather seats, It's actually affordable some of the time, and the food is reasonably priced rather than being extortionate (GW since getting rid of the travelling chef) or "free", but at the mercy of whatever the staff want to dole out (EC).

 

[cactustwirly]

First in their HST's is far more comfortable than Great Western and East Coast, it doesn't have gimmicky leather seats, It's actually affordable some of the time, and the food is reasonably priced rather than being extortionate (GW since getting rid of the travelling chef) or "free", but at the mercy of whatever the staff want to dole out (EC).

Disagree 100%, GWR has the most comfortable first, of any operator (HSTs anyway)

The catering is the usual overpriced, Rail Gourmet offering.

 

[Skymonster]

First in their HST's is far more comfortable than Great Western and East Coast, it doesn't have gimmicky leather seats, It's actually affordable some of the time, and the food is reasonably priced rather than being extortionate (GW since getting rid of the travelling chef) or "free", but at the mercy of whatever the staff want to dole out (EC).

Totally disagree - I recently travelled in one of the ex-GC HSTs with the GWR buffet / first and the seating (yes leather) was way way better than anything on offer in EMT's other first coaches. And EMT's complementary first offer is crap - limited to tea, coffee, biscuits passengers can't even get a coke without having to pay for it nowadays.

 

[Kneedown]

They got lucky with the hull train cast off.

They've got no plan for what's happening with the HST fleet when all the doors are supposed to be automatic lol

They cut hundreds of jobs onboard and now having to recruit to return numbers back to previous levels.

It was lucky imdeed that the HT 222's arrived as the alternative being planned was 180's.

To be fair, the entire MML was supposed to be electrified with all new stock by the early 2020's, but the project was paused, and then partially cancelled. I agree that a plan should've been put in place for making the HST's compliant. Maybe they are after a derogation, or funding from the DfT as it is them who have "moved the goalposts"?

Fully agree about the onboard staff cuts, as my good lady often laments to me about serving an entire first class section on her own, before having to, clean, clear and lay tables etc.

 

[43074]

If you've got shares in stagecoach then obviously you'll love them. They're great at returing a profit. They got lucky with the hull train cast off.

All other new trains have been the cheapest cast offs money can buy old redundant HSTs nobody else wants. 156s nobody wanted.

They've got no plan for what's happening with the HST fleet when all the doors are supposed to be automatic lol

The extra paths to anywhere are DFT ideas and requirements. They've seriously cut back on the performance available to 222s to save money.

The DfT idea in 2006/2007 was actually 4 paths per hour from St Pancras with 1 of these attaching and detaching at Leicester for Derby or Nottingham and Leicester to London dropping from 4tph to 3tph, Stagecoach took the risk of running 5 per hour from St Pancras. Rolling Stock strategy like the extra 15x units and the HST door situation are also DfT decisions, most of the issues with the franchise are not necessarily EMTs fault.

 

[yorksrob]

Disagree 100%, GWR has the most comfortable first, of any operator (HSTs anyway)

The catering is the usual overpriced, Rail Gourmet offering.

Disagree. I'd prefer the option of a square meal at six or seven pounds than have to pay pullman prices.

I tried GW first once (in the days when it was still just about affordable). Not bad, but no where near as comfortable as EMT HST 1st.

 

[yorksrob]

Totally disagree - I recently travelled in one of the ex-GC HSTs with the GWR buffet / first and the seating (yes leather) was way way better than anything on offer in EMT's other first coaches. And EMT's complementary first offer is crap - limited to tea, coffee, biscuits passengers can't even get a coke without having to pay for it nowadays.

I remember using GC downgraded 1st when it was still GC, and it was nowhere near as comfortable (although hopefully they re-stuffed some of them during the re-fresh).

As for freebies, what's the point of having rationed out freebies if they're just going to be added to the ticket price ? I'd rather get on the train first, then decide if I want to buy any extras.

 

[WillPS]

Midland Mainline was a quality operator with an entrepreneurial feel to it. Yes, they took on Turbostars to begin with but these were binned off as soon as the passenger numbers were there to step it up.

Other than a pack of crappy biscuits and a tiny bottle of room temperature water, passengers in First now get the same level of catering as Standard passengers got under MML.

That said, looking at the bidders (and the state of the rail industry in 2018) I very much doubt any will do anything to really improve the customer experience. I dislike Stagecoach though so would still rather see a change.

 

[yorksrob]

I'll say this - it would be nice if the new operator could offer crisps as a freeby. Sometimes one prefers something savoury.

 

[NoOnesFool]

By far the worst aspect is the replacement of the buffets with Rail Gormless -


the Meridians need urgent refurb

An At-Seat service brings in more sales than a buffet service, it's better for business and obviously preferable by the customer, and we still have a buffet service on weekends.

The Meridian fleet was refurbished only 7 years ago and is looking well, apart from day-to-day dirt around the headrests, which could easily be remidied with a deep clean.

 

[LowLevel]

The first class is tailored to the effectively mostly short to middle distance journeys that are undertaken. There's no point pretending that London - Leicester - Notitngham - Derby - Sheffield is London to Scotland or Cornwall.

The freebies are juice, tea, coffee, water, biscuits and snacks and wine on some evening journeys out of London. To cater for the full fat business custom in the peak what is probably the best cooked breakfast on the network is provided on advertised trains and they also extended it to all passengers on the Saturday breakfast trains.

The main food model is more of a European one. You can't justify throwing full meals out but if you want one you can buy a good quality, full size dinner (no mini portions) and have it served on a plate with cutlery. That's no different to DB or SNCF's on board offering in first.

I don't like the 'give out rubbish free stuff' thing in first. I rarely bother touching it.