East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[tbtc]

Could their be more London Services as part of the next EM Franchise. Like a regular London-Leeds service by extending one hourly Sheffield service to Leeds?

Sounds good - additional capacity is certainly needed on the fast Sheffield - Leeds services - but instead we are getting a two/three coach 195 every hour (the current hourly Nottingham - Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds service is being split into an hourly Nottingham - Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate - Leeds - Bradford service and an hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds service).

Would a full length InterCity train be better for the Sheffield - Leeds market? Undoubtedly. And a through train to Derby etc would take even more pressure off the hourly XC service. But we are getting a fun-sized DMU instead.

I'd be tempted to send one to Leicester instead.

If we had the wires, I'd agree. A regular Leicester stopper would also deal with the need for longer distance services to stop at Market Harborough etc.

But, we aren't going to wire to Leicester any time soon, so Corby gets a half hourly service. Annoyingly.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Could their be more London Services as part of the next EM Franchise. Like a regular London-Leeds service by extending one hourly Sheffield service to Leeds?

This was the intention for the longer Meridian trains when built, however the DFT decided that it wasn't viable. Given that Leeds already has 2tph from London, and Sheffield has 4 tph to Leeds, I cannot forsee it being a realistic option.

 

[tbtc]

This was the intention for the longer Meridian trains when built, however the DFT decided that it wasn't viable. Given that Leeds already has 2tph from London, and Sheffield has 4 tph to Leeds, I cannot forsee it being a realistic option.

The two cities are just under thirty miles apart, as the crow flies. It's a thirty five mile drive up the M1.

Current departures from Sheffield

• xx:02 - arrives in Leeds eighty two minutes later (stopper via Castleford)
• xx:15 - arrives in Leeds seventy five minutes later (stopper via Dearne Valley)
• xx:18 - arrives in Leeds fifty six minutes later (semi-fast via Barnsley)
• xx:21 - arrives in Leeds thirty nine minutes later (XC service normally from Plymouth - Edinburgh)
• xx:45 - arrives in Leeds sixty one minutes later (semi-fast via Barnsley)

...so that's five trains per hour, three of which are overtaken by the xx:21, so everyone going between the cities tends to cram onto the XC service. The XC service that already has passengers travelling to/from Birmingham, Newcastle, Edinburgh etc. The one I used to try to get on each day when commuting between Sheffield and Leeds. It gets a bit busy...

If you miss the xx:21 then you can wait twenty four minutes for the xx:45 which gets to Leeds forty five minutes after the XC arrived there, so that's a Plan-B, but the rest of the services are no use for Sheffield - Leeds journeys - which is why a long EMT service running as fast as the XC one would be very welcome. But that path is going to a two/three coach 195...

 

[Aictos]

You may be correct. Railway staff love a wind up. I'm sure someone will confirm at some point.

Indeed, you're not far wrong there!

 

[LowLevel]

I disagree unfortunately. EMT London services are running similar distances to WC and GW core services, i.e. London to Sheffield is a similar distance as London to Bristol or London to Wolverhampton. There is a full First Class service offered, unlike on Greater Anglia. Standard Class passengers receive an at seat service during the week and there are First Class Lounges at key terminals on the route, something you would not get on a short-medium distance route. EMT also worked with Network Rail to bring the line speed between London and Bedford up to 125 mph whereas London to Norwich is only 110 mph I believe.

VWC have just culled a load of their first lounges as well whereas EMT have opened more - I think the most recent is Kettering, firmly in commuter territory.

 

[TheBigD]

Does Corby need two trains an hour ?

Not yet, but there is a massive amount of house building going on and more planned for Corby and surrounding areas.

Some of the former ironstone quarries are now seeing housing developments with more to follow. Plans for housing on the former Deenethorpe airfield, now being developed as Tresham Garden Village.

The half hourly service will support this and make it an attractive option for people.

 

[kevjs]

The two cities are just under thirty miles apart, as the crow flies. It's a thirty five mile drive up the M1.

Current departures from Sheffield

• xx:02 - arrives in Leeds eighty two minutes later (stopper via Castleford)
• xx:15 - arrives in Leeds seventy five minutes later (stopper via Dearne Valley)
• xx:18 - arrives in Leeds fifty six minutes later (semi-fast via Barnsley)
• xx:21 - arrives in Leeds thirty nine minutes later (XC service normally from Plymouth - Edinburgh)
• xx:45 - arrives in Leeds sixty one minutes later (semi-fast via Barnsley)

...so that's five trains per hour, three of which are overtaken by the xx:21, so everyone going between the cities tends to cram onto the XC service. The XC service that already has passengers travelling to/from Birmingham, Newcastle, Edinburgh etc. The one I used to try to get on each day when commuting between Sheffield and Leeds. It gets a bit busy...

If you miss the xx:21 then you can wait twenty four minutes for the xx:45 which gets to Leeds forty five minutes after the XC arrived there, so that's a Plan-B, but the rest of the services are no use for Sheffield - Leeds journeys - which is why a long EMT service running as fast as the XC one would be very welcome. But that path is going to a two/three coach 195...

Assuming the Liverpool Nottingham train is transferred to Cross Country / TPE as planned, would Leeds not become the ideal destination for the Norwich train? E.g. - Leeds - Wakefield - Sheffield - Chesterfield - Alfreton - Langley Mill or Ilkeston - Nottingham and onto Norwich? Run it roughly 30 minutes after the XC service, provide an express service from Leeds to Sheffield and provide increased choice for fast services from the East Midlands?

 

[Camden]

Is Leeds in the East Midlands? The current service is being severed for political reasons. To send it somewhere else on top of that would make no sense that I can discern.

 

[yorksrob]

Not yet, but there is a massive amount of house building going on and more planned for Corby and surrounding areas.

Some of the former ironstone quarries are now seeing housing developments with more to follow. Plans for housing on the former Deenethorpe airfield, now being developed as Tresham Garden Village.

The half hourly service will support this and make it an attractive option for people.

Sounds good - additional capacity is certainly needed on the fast Sheffield - Leeds services - but instead we are getting a two/three coach 195 every hour (the current hourly Nottingham - Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds service is being split into an hourly Nottingham - Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate - Leeds - Bradford service and an hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds service).

Would a full length InterCity train be better for the Sheffield - Leeds market? Undoubtedly. And a through train to Derby etc would take even more pressure off the hourly XC service. But we are getting a fun-sized DMU instead.



If we had the wires, I'd agree. A regular Leicester stopper would also deal with the need for longer distance services to stop at Market Harborough etc.

But, we aren't going to wire to Leicester any time soon, so Corby gets a half hourly service. Annoyingly.

Well, perhaps it will be of more use in time, although I'd prefer full electrification of the route, enabling decent services between South of Kettering and the North.

In terms of faster services to Leeds, its a shame one of the fast Hallam services can't go over to the midland franchise. Barnsley would have a direct London service as well !

 

[pt_mad]

Does Corby need two trains an hour ?

I believe the Corby is to become the standard semi fast inter regional stopper on the route though after the electrification? I e. Bedford passengers going north will get the Corby and make connections into the expresses at Kettering afaik?

 

[edwin_m]

I guess it's just a handy spot to turn an extra working back to London.

I'd be tempted to send one to Leicester instead.

Isn't Corby one of the places suggested for lots of new housing?

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe. My town's had new housing estates for years, and one train per hour seems to suffice.

 

[TheBigD]

Isn't Corby one of the places suggested for lots of new housing?

Yes. See my earlier post.

 

[Killingworth]

Assuming the Liverpool Nottingham train is transferred to Cross Country / TPE as planned, would Leeds not become the ideal destination for the Norwich train?

As Liverpool-Nottingham is to be remapped to TPE or Northern, probably by December 2021, and if it isn't remapped, or there are any difficulties splitting the route, it may stay with East Midlands. I doubt Cross Country will be involved.

Several options from this. Norwich-Nottingham-Sheffield. Liverpool-Sheffield-Nottingham. Frequency of any services may be a factor. Adding in Leeds could be considered, but part of the Liverpool-Norwich punctuality challenge would be changed but not solved. Splitting at Nottingham should make the two halves more robust on that score.

When I used the service from Sheffield or Chesterfield to Norwich I saw no more than 20-30 travelling through Nottingham, but they may not be typical. I've seen a lot more travelling through Manchester on the section from Sheffield to Liverpool. They're the people who are currently suffering.

 

[js1000]

As Liverpool-Nottingham is to be remapped to TPE or Northern, probably by December 2021, and if it isn't remapped, or there are any difficulties splitting the route, it may stay with East Midlands. I doubt Cross Country will be involved.

Several options from this. Norwich-Nottingham-Sheffield. Liverpool-Sheffield-Nottingham. Frequency of any services may be a factor. Adding in Leeds could be considered, but part of the Liverpool-Norwich punctuality challenge would be changed but not solved. Splitting at Nottingham should make the two halves more robust on that score.

When I used the service from Sheffield or Chesterfield to Norwich I saw no more than 20-30 travelling through Nottingham, but they may not be typical. I've seen a lot more travelling through Manchester on the section from Sheffield to Liverpool. They're the people who are currently suffering.

The stretch between Sheffield and Manchester, less so Liverpool was always rammed. It must not be merely an observation but statistically true if the DfT are keen to transfer the leg from Liverpool to Nottingham to TPE.

 

[whhistle]

There is a full First Class service offered, unlike on Greater Anglia.

Define "full".
I compare to West coast which has food all day, every day (reduced at weekends), on every train.
EMT has "breakfast trains" - have no idea what is served on other "non-breakfast" trains.
On the West Coast, lunch is quite substantial with sandwiches, wraps, crisps, cakes, fruit, chocolate. EMT offer a couple of snacks.
Do EMT have full evening meals? Granted not all West Coast routes do, but many do.
Drinks are also considerably reduced - tea, coffee, juice. No fizzy drinks, no alcohol.

Euston, Paddington and Kings Cross have many platforms for the longer express trains. St Pancras has a poultry 4 in comparison. Just 4 (maybe 6 if I mis-counted)

In speed terms, yes, the line is as quick but I'd still suggest the route is closer in terms of service given (overall) to a secondary intercity route, like Norwich rather than a longer distance intercity route.

Money was found to upgrade the West Coast, Great Western is getting electrified (granted, not the entire route), yet the one that makes more sense to electrify continues to be started, then stopped, then started, now only half way.

Like it or not, the route has always been down trodden.

But some good points raised.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Define "full".
I compare to West coast which has food all day, every day (reduced at weekends), on every train.
EMT has "breakfast trains" - have no idea what is served on other "non-breakfast" trains.
On the West Coast, lunch is quite substantial with sandwiches, wraps, crisps, cakes, fruit, chocolate. EMT offer a couple of snacks.
Do EMT have full evening meals? Granted not all West Coast routes do, but many do.
Drinks are also considerably reduced - tea, coffee, juice. No fizzy drinks, no alcohol.

Euston, Paddington and Kings Cross have many platforms for the longer express trains. St Pancras has a poultry 4 in comparison. Just 4 (maybe 6 if I mis-counted)

In speed terms, yes, the line is as quick but I'd still suggest the route is closer in terms of service given (overall) to a secondary intercity route, like Norwich rather than a longer distance intercity route.

Money was found to upgrade the West Coast, Great Western is getting electrified (granted, not the entire route), yet the one that makes more sense to electrify continues to be started, then stopped, then started, now only half way.

Like it or not, the route has always been down trodden.

But some good points raised.

St Pancras until the rebuild was 6 Platforms with enough room for 8 if you was to remove the road on the middle of the station. It was a mistake not adding 6 platforms to the new station. But yes there is just 4 platforms

 

[yorksrob]

Define "full".
I compare to West coast which has food all day, every day (reduced at weekends), on every train.
EMT has "breakfast trains" - have no idea what is served on other "non-breakfast" trains.
On the West Coast, lunch is quite substantial with sandwiches, wraps, crisps, cakes, fruit, chocolate. EMT offer a couple of snacks.
Do EMT have full evening meals? Granted not all West Coast routes do, but many do.
Drinks are also considerably reduced - tea, coffee, juice. No fizzy drinks, no alcohol.

Euston, Paddington and Kings Cross have many platforms for the longer express trains. St Pancras has a poultry 4 in comparison. Just 4 (maybe 6 if I mis-counted)

In speed terms, yes, the line is as quick but I'd still suggest the route is closer in terms of service given (overall) to a secondary intercity route, like Norwich rather than a longer distance intercity route.

Money was found to upgrade the West Coast, Great Western is getting electrified (granted, not the entire route), yet the one that makes more sense to electrify continues to be started, then stopped, then started, now only half way.

Like it or not, the route has always been down trodden.

But some good points raised.

On evening trains you can purchase a full hot meal or lighter snack, served at seat with crockery for a very reasonable sum. That, to me is an InterCity level of service, although it would be even better if it were available at weekends.

And of course, you can get free hot drinks till they're coming out of your ears.

 

[Senex]

In speed terms, yes, the line is as quick but I'd still suggest the route is closer in terms of service given (overall) to a secondary intercity route, like Norwich rather than a longer distance intercity route.

Do we define intercity in terms of the quality of first-class service the railway chooses to offer, or should the definition be in terms of the cities served? If the latter, surely Nottingham and Sheffield rank amongst the principal UK cities with Leicester and Derby at least being very high in the second rank, whereas Norwich is second rank and Colchester and Ipswich don't really count (sorry East Anglians — Norwich is a wonderful and gorgeous place, but it isn't in the top economic rank).

 

[swt_passenger]

Could their be more London Services as part of the next EM Franchise. Like a regular London-Leeds service by extending one hourly Sheffield service to Leeds?

MML & now EMT were not required to run London to Leeds all day. The service is run in the margins to get HSTs on and off their depot, operating in passenger service is a bonus.

Leeds is not mentioned in the 2018 ITT train service requirements either.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Define "full".
I compare to West coast which has food all day, every day (reduced at weekends), on every train.
EMT has "breakfast trains" - have no idea what is served on other "non-breakfast" trains.
On the West Coast, lunch is quite substantial with sandwiches, wraps, crisps, cakes, fruit, chocolate. EMT offer a couple of snacks.
Do EMT have full evening meals? Granted not all West Coast routes do, but many do.
Drinks are also considerably reduced - tea, coffee, juice. No fizzy drinks, no alcohol.

Euston, Paddington and Kings Cross have many platforms for the longer express trains. St Pancras has a poultry 4 in comparison. Just 4 (maybe 6 if I mis-counted)

In speed terms, yes, the line is as quick but I'd still suggest the route is closer in terms of service given (overall) to a secondary intercity route, like Norwich rather than a longer distance intercity route.

Money was found to upgrade the West Coast, Great Western is getting electrified (granted, not the entire route), yet the one that makes more sense to electrify continues to be started, then stopped, then started, now only half way.

Like it or not, the route has always been down trodden.

But some good points raised.

To answer some of your questions, yes EMT offer hot meals in First Class, these are served in the evening as well. On non breakfast morning trains, there are lighter breakfast options, such as porridge and pastries. Coca Cola, Sprite, beers, wines and prosecco are also available to purchase.

 

[Class 170101]

EMT also worked with Network Rail to bring the line speed between London and Bedford up to 125 mph whereas London to Norwich is only 110 mph I believe.

100mph Liverpool Street to Norwich is the maximum linespeed.

 

[londonmidland]

Has anyone else noticed whenever EMT post an advertisement on Facebook for their London fares they really can’t win?

 

[Llandudno]

It’s hardly surprising considering the fare levels!
Amazingly it is some times cheaper to book a Megatrain ticket from Chesterfield to London than an Advance train ticket - and you get booked on the same train!

 

[swt_passenger]

Amazingly it is some times cheaper to book a Megatrain ticket from Chesterfield to London than an Advance train ticket - and you get booked on the same train!

Not that surprising. Back in SWT days under Stagecoach, Megatrain fares were available for journeys where Advances were not available at all. That changed only a year or two before the franchise ended...

 

[whhistle]

Coca Cola, Sprite, beers, wines and prosecco are also available to purchase.

But free on West Coast at least...

On evening trains you can purchase a full hot meal or lighter snack...

It's wading into the "what First Class should offer" discussion but the difference between First and Standard on this Intercity route is a different seat cover.
Little things like this (IE, not offering a similar level of First Class level to West, East or Great West) is what pushes it towards the more rubbish end, hence low investment (because it's eeen as not as important) yet very high ticket prices on certain routes.

Just my opinion having travelled on both.
If you make First Class important, changes happen in Standard, which makes the line more popular and more important to the UK government.

 

[yorksrob]

But free on West Coast at least...



It's wading into the "what First Class should offer" discussion but the difference between First and Standard on this Intercity route is a different seat cover.
Little things like this (IE, not offering a similar level of First Class level to West, East or Great West) is what pushes it towards the more rubbish end, hence low investment (because it's eeen as not as important) yet very high ticket prices on certain routes.

Just my opinion having travelled on both.
If you make First Class important, changes happen in Standard, which makes the line more popular and more important to the UK government.

I've travelled on trains where 1st is identical to standard, and I can assure you that East Midlands Trains 1st class (at least in the HST's) is about as far from first being the same as second as its possible to get. Whilst second is acceptably comfortable, first is positively luxurious.

And as far as food is concerned, I'd far rather pay a reasonable price for my ticket, and have the option of deciding whether I want to pay for a decent meal, than have to wait on tenterhooks to see if someone deigns to give me a free croissant.

That's just my take on it.

 

[londonmidland]

How often do the LIV-NRW services pick up delays throughout its journey?

An example below shows what looks like it first encountered a delay between Oxford Road and Piccadilly (usual hot spot for congestion) before gradually loosing more time between Piccadilly and Sheffield. Further down the line, it looks to have picked up additional delays between Grantham and Peterborough and is now around 25-30L.

I assume this will affect the return working from Norwich to the North West?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C66950/2018/09/13/advanced

 

[NoOnesFool]

Has anyone else noticed whenever EMT post an advertisement on Facebook for their London fares they really can’t win?

View attachment 52360

Rail travel isn't suposed to be cheap, it's supposed to be a speedy and comfortable service, which EMT London services are and many are happy to pay the fares.

 

[hooverboy]

Rail travel isn't suposed to be cheap, it's supposed to be a speedy and comfortable service, which EMT London services are and many are happy to pay the fares.

I wouldn't call vestibule end flip up seats on a 5 car comfortable.

I did see you prefixed that with the word "supposed" though.