East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[ChiefPlanner]

The ITT document suggests that the proposed implementation date of the 'split' will coincide with the "boost" in local services, specifically referring to the impact on staff. Presumably the increased number of services in Lincolnshire will mean more work for Nottingham depot.

Ripping the franchise, and the depot's work, into little bits - as suggested above - seems entirely contrary to that. What benefits could arise from shifting Notts - Worksop and Derby - Crewe services from a franchise that has traincrew depots convenient for both to a franchise that has depots convenient for neither? Similar for transferring Liverpool - Norwich in its entirety to XC.

I agree , however - unless things have changed , there were some onerous Nottingham early / night turns that had the first departure from Liverpool sourced by an ECS from Nottingham in the very small hours - pretty dispiriting work before you even see or carry a passenger.

 

[Tomnick]

I agree , however - unless things have changed , there were some onerous Nottingham early / night turns that had the first departure from Liverpool sourced by an ECS from Nottingham in the very small hours - pretty dispiriting work before you even see or carry a passenger.

There’s still an 0400-ish departure, empties to Liverpool. I think a lot like it because they’re finished by mid to late morning and have the rest of the day to themselves! Maybe it’d be slightly easier to resource the northern half of the route from Sheffield and depots west of there, although the two ecs moves (one each way) are the only inefficiency at the moment really, and they’re used to keep up route knowledge on diversions anyway. My point, though, is that XC are in an even worse position with only one current traincrew depot on the route and very little relevant route knowledge as things stand!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There’s still an 0400-ish departure, empties to Liverpool. I think a lot like it because they’re finished by mid to late morning and have the rest of the day to themselves! Maybe it’d be slightly easier to resource the northern half of the route from Sheffield and depots west of there, although the two ecs moves (one each way) are the only inefficiency at the moment really, and they’re used to keep up route knowledge on diversions anyway. My point, though, is that XC are in an even worse position with only one current traincrew depot on the route and very little relevant route knowledge as things stand!

All right this time of year , but grim in the dark months ! - mind you there used to be some awful GW turns , like 0400 Old Oak to Hereford via Paddington - ECS - off topic I know - but there we are. Not everything fits .....

 

[LowLevel]

There’s still an 0400-ish departure, empties to Liverpool. I think a lot like it because they’re finished by mid to late morning and have the rest of the day to themselves! Maybe it’d be slightly easier to resource the northern half of the route from Sheffield and depots west of there, although the two ecs moves (one each way) are the only inefficiency at the moment really, and they’re used to keep up route knowledge on diversions anyway. My point, though, is that XC are in an even worse position with only one current traincrew depot on the route and very little relevant route knowledge as things stand!

The guards turns are now 0340ish to 1034 and 0340ish to 1220 (and frequently extended starting earlier than that) - you can keep them!

I doubt that any traincrew redundancies will feature. More likely that Nottingham crews will be more eastern focussed.

On an entirely personal level I'll not be sad to see it go. Short formations, tired rolling stock and regulation that seems to favour every other service on the network (I might just get out and walk off next time a procession of late running trains destroy my hopes of an on time finish at Castlefield Junction) have destroyed the enthusiasm I used to have for working the long distance services and I'll happily settle for more Lincs work instead. The main sad thing is the prospect of another 3.5 years of it with no improvement in sight. I'll miss the Hope Valley though - the morning and evening local services are my favourite trains to work.

From a business level though I can't help but be bitter as the wastage of millions of hours worth of route knowledge to hive another profitable route off to TPE as an entirely paperwork based exercise. As a part Intercity operator with staff experienced in working the route there's no reason EM couldn't provide an equally good and competitive service with the right investment. It's like an all consuming fungus eating everything in it's path.

 

[yorksrob]

The guards turns are now 0340ish to 1034 and 0340ish to 1220 (and frequently extended starting earlier than that) - you can keep them!

I doubt that any traincrew redundancies will feature. More likely that Nottingham crews will be more eastern focussed.

On an entirely personal level I'll not be sad to see it go. Short formations, tired rolling stock and regulation that seems to favour every other service on the network (I might just get out and walk off next time a procession of late running trains destroy my hopes of an on time finish at Castlefield Junction) have destroyed the enthusiasm I used to have for working the long distance services and I'll happily settle for more Lincs work instead. The main sad thing is the prospect of another 3.5 years of it with no improvement in sight. I'll miss the Hope Valley though - the morning and evening local services are my favourite trains to work.

From a business level though I can't help but be bitter as the wastage of millions of hours worth of route knowledge to hive another profitable route off to TPE as an entirely paperwork based exercise. As a part Intercity operator with staff experienced in working the route there's no reason EM couldn't provide an equally good and competitive service with the right investment. It's like an all consuming fungus eating everything in it's path.

I've usually found my journeys by EMT on the Hope Valley more comfortable than equivalent journeys on TPE. Getting a seat and window is more important than how 'tired' the train interior is.

 

[LowLevel]

I've usually found my journeys by EMT on the Hope Valley more comfortable than equivalent journeys on TPE. Getting a seat and window is more important than how 'tired' the train interior is.

When I say tired I mean mechanically rather than the interior which has actually held up pretty well (I can assure you EMT even deploy hoovers each night which having seen some other TOC's trains I can only assume they don't!) - the DMU fleet is on it's backside. Apart from the usual 153 Achilles heels (low coolant issues causing failure, water cascading through window seals etc) they actually seem to plod about fairly well - the 156s and 158s though seem to those of us working them to be about on their last legs. It ranges from big things like engine failure to little things like having to reassemble door panels when they've dropped to bits.

 

[atraindriver]

having to reassemble door panels when they've dropped to bits.

Tysotape/Etchplast is a wonderful thing...

 

[Kneedown]

No one has mentioned the 80 odd Traincrew redundancies (approx 40 Drivers 40 Conductors) when the Nottm - Liverpool part goes.
I don't think they will 'walk over' to Northern or TPE either. Northern Traincrew already go to Nottm and TPE Traincrew only need to Route learn Sheffield to Nottingham. A damn sight cheaper than sourcing a Traincrew building + managers and then Traction train all the staff on ' units/trains at Nottingham.

More likely scenario IMO, if no new work is forthcoming to compensate for the loss, is to introduce Sundays into the working week. Just about enough surplus Traincrew to bring this about at zero cost to the company.

 

[yorksrob]

When I say tired I mean mechanically rather than the interior which has actually held up pretty well (I can assure you EMT even deploy hoovers each night which having seen some other TOC's trains I can only assume they don't!) - the DMU fleet is on it's backside. Apart from the usual 153 Achilles heels (low coolant issues causing failure, water cascading through window seals etc) they actually seem to plod about fairly well - the 156s and 158s though seem to those of us working them to be about on their last legs. It ranges from big things like engine failure to little things like having to reassemble door panels when they've dropped to bits.

As long as they still move - and if not, as long as there's a 153 to shove on the end in its place, it works for me.

 

[atraindriver]

More likely scenario IMO, if no new work is forthcoming to compensate for the loss, is to introduce Sundays into the working week.

Supposed to happen by May next year anyway, even at Nottingham!

 

[LowLevel]

Tysotape/Etchplast is a wonderful thing...

I carry a multi tool as it has helped me out of numerous little evils and last time I had one fall to bits on me (156 panel latch) I managed to grub around and find enough stray screws and so on in cupboards to put it back together again till a fitter could do it 'properly' IE do much the same as me but with slightly better equipped stores.

I've always carried a multi tool and a roll of duct tape - they can get you out of most problems on a 15x!

 

[LowLevel]

Supposed to happen by May next year anyway, even at Nottingham!

Not for guards. We are about 50/50 not in at all/committed at Nottingham.

As long as they still move - and if not, as long as there's a 153 to shove on the end in its place, it works for me.

I can promise you that dragging yourself into work for another shortformed peak hour train that you know has had failed air con for months is just depressing - explaining to someone why they should consider themselves lucky to have a 153 with no seat back tables or arm rests (153311 I'm looking at you) on a 2 hr 40 journey is just the icing on the cake!

 

[atraindriver]

Not for guards. We are about 50/50 not in at all/committed at Nottingham.

Apologies, I was thinking of drivers. I think it'll be a struggle to get it in for Notts drivers though, given how difficult it has been to get it working at the majority opt-in depots!

I can promise you that dragging yourself into work for another shortformed peak hour train that you know has had failed air con for months is just depressing - explaining to someone why they should consider themselves lucky to have a 153 with no seat back tables or arm rests (153311 I'm looking at you) on a 2 hr 40 journey is just the icing on the cake!

I generally find that telling the truth and letting it be known just how peed off you were with the situation helps (as you know we long ago lost most of our 2-car workings out in the Flatlands, with the usual ramifications of daily overloading of single 153s). But yes, it is depressing, and I think the refusal of the current TOC to acknowledge that there even is an issue, let alone take it seriously, is one reason quite a %age of the staff won't be sorry to see the end of the franchise, even if the next operating group are a bunch of so-and-so's.

 

[Tomnick]

The guards turns are now 0340ish to 1034 and 0340ish to 1220 (and frequently extended starting earlier than that) - you can keep them!

I doubt that any traincrew redundancies will feature. More likely that Nottingham crews will be more eastern focussed.

On an entirely personal level I'll not be sad to see it go. Short formations, tired rolling stock and regulation that seems to favour every other service on the network (I might just get out and walk off next time a procession of late running trains destroy my hopes of an on time finish at Castlefield Junction) have destroyed the enthusiasm I used to have for working the long distance services and I'll happily settle for more Lincs work instead. The main sad thing is the prospect of another 3.5 years of it with no improvement in sight. I'll miss the Hope Valley though - the morning and evening local services are my favourite trains to work.

From a business level though I can't help but be bitter as the wastage of millions of hours worth of route knowledge to hive another profitable route off to TPE as an entirely paperwork based exercise. As a part Intercity operator with staff experienced in working the route there's no reason EM couldn't provide an equally good and competitive service with the right investment. It's like an all consuming fungus eating everything in it's path.

I can't really comment on the work itself yet from a personal point of view (other than to agree that 0340ish to 1220 is a horrible concept!). It's the business side of it that puzzles me, the obsession with trying to fit everything into little tidy boxes or to make maps where everything looks nice that does me, taking a thoroughly unworkable solution and setting out to find any minor problem to justify it. I don't know why the DfT are so determined to split the route - all that I can think is that they've got themselves into a position where they'll soon have a decent number of new-ish trains with a dedicated depot and maintenance contract but no work for them, and that's what's driving the decisions rather than what's best for the passengers. I really don't understand some of the suggestions on here - taking one of a depot's core routes out of the franchise and giving it to another which doesn't have any sort of presence near either end of the route, least of all at the busiest section with the most intensive service. All very bizarre!

 

[BR_Nick1980]

Lincoln will be the big winner - they sign to Cleethorpes and will probably learn Barton on Humber. They also sign Lincoln - Donny. Nottingham crews don't. More cost if they have to Learn them. Admittedly we could take some of Lincoln's current Leicester services and we do sign Lincoln to Peterborough, although only about 60 Drivers sign - so more R/Learning required.
It's mainly the short-sightedness of the management. They have been blinkered to the MML and just not invested in the 'Local' side of things. When GWR got rid of most of the 180's 8 or 9 years ago Stagecoach were offered them but turned them down - citing reliability problems. A missed opportunity in my eyes and the question of splitting the Liverpool - Norwich would never have been asked!!

 

[atraindriver]

Lincoln will be the big winner

Will they? Routes move around depots; Lincoln gained and lost Birmingham, losing it well before CT was split up. Boston gained and lost Doncaster under CT. Norwich has gained Worksop (guards) and Leicester (drivers) under EMT; who's to say they won't lose it and learn Peterborough-Lincoln-Donny instead?
The new franchise may offer to run a new Sheffield - Stansted Airport service, crewed from Nottingham; they may choose to run only what's required in the ITT.

None of us have any way of knowing what the next franchisee will decide to do. They may go for super-depots (like RRC tried when they started centralising all the western work at Birmingham New Street), or they may go for sub-depots (look at Northern with some of their tiny depots such as Harrogate). They may stick with the status-quo; they may go for a complete rehash. They may close depots; they may open depots.
None of us know what will happen, and it's probably not wise to assume that we do.

 

[The Ham]

IE do much the same as me but with slightly better equipped stores.

... so a tin of screws (mostly picked up from the floor of trains) an industrial sized roll of duct tape and a rack of tools then?

 

[yorksrob]

Not for guards. We are about 50/50 not in at all/committed at Nottingham.



I can promise you that dragging yourself into work for another shortformed peak hour train that you know has had failed air con for months is just depressing - explaining to someone why they should consider themselves lucky to have a 153 with no seat back tables or arm rests (153311 I'm looking at you) on a 2 hr 40 journey is just the icing on the cake!

I´m resigned to doing 1hr plus journeys without tables or armreasts in Northern land, so whilst not ideal, its not a deal breaker.

I´ve tried all the trans pennine options between Manchester and Yorkshire on a Saturday evening over the last ten years, and you may be shocked to learn that yours is far and away the best one.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Lincoln will be the big winner - they sign to Cleethorpes and will probably learn Barton on Humber. They also sign Lincoln - Donny. Nottingham crews don't. More cost if they have to Learn them. Admittedly we could take some of Lincoln's current Leicester services and we do sign Lincoln to Peterborough, although only about 60 Drivers sign - so more R/Learning required.
It's mainly the short-sightedness of the management. They have been blinkered to the MML and just not invested in the 'Local' side of things. When GWR got rid of most of the 180's 8 or 9 years ago Stagecoach were offered them but turned them down - citing reliability problems. A missed opportunity in my eyes and the question of splitting the Liverpool - Norwich would never have been asked!!

You might find a greater cost in extending facilities for additional Traincrew at Lincoln where there are approximately 60 FTEs, extending stabling space (its used almost to capacity) and increasing staff parking for those extra cars that will be used.

Aside from a small increase in headcount at Lincoln I can't see them gaining a huge amount of work, not when another depot is losing over a dozen turns.

As for the talk of redundancies from other folk on here, that's not going to happen.

I agree , however - unless things have changed , there were some onerous Nottingham early / night turns that had the first departure from Liverpool sourced by an ECS from Nottingham in the very small hours - pretty dispiriting work before you even see or carry a passenger.

I quite like those turns thanks. You obviously have no idea on the views of the Traincrew who work the turns to make such a daft statement. I finish at 0930 next Tuesday. I can look at a diversion I've not been over for a while, read a book, listen to music, listen to an audio book, have a kip, eat my breakfast, etc etc. How on earth is that 'dispiriting'???

 

[LowLevel]

I quite like those turns thanks. You obviously have no idea on the views of the Traincrew who work the turns to make such a daft statement. I finish at 0930 next Tuesday. I can look at a diversion I've not been over for a while, read a book, listen to music, listen to an audio book, have a kip, eat my breakfast, etc etc. How on earth is that 'dispiriting'???

That's somewhat unfair - they're very much marmite turns. I hate them. Get up at 0145. Drag myself into work. Put reservations on. Grunt hello at equally knackered colleagues. Sit in uncomfortable seats to Liverpool. Turn around and come back quickly on the first job. Have a leisurely breakfast at Spoons on the second (The only plus point!). Be wedged out on the way back and thanks to a combination of Network Rail, Northern and TPE being unable to run a bath turn an on time departure from Birchwood into a 10-20 late arrival in Manchester. Get moaned at all the way across the Hope Valley by people who never make their connections but still keep catching the same trains. Get home, fall asleep through exhaustion. On a Saturday, replace getting home with taking the busiest daytrippers train up to Matlock and getting home at gone 1330.

 

[bunnahabhain]

That's somewhat unfair - they're very much marmite turns. I hate them. Get up at 0145. Drag myself into work. Put reservations on. Grunt hello at equally knackered colleagues. Sit in uncomfortable seats to Liverpool. Turn around and come back quickly on the first job. Have a leisurely breakfast at Spoons on the second (The only plus point!). Be wedged out on the way back and thanks to a combination of Network Rail, Northern and TPE being unable to run a bath turn an on time departure from Birchwood into a 10-20 late arrival in Manchester. Get moaned at all the way across the Hope Valley by people who never make their connections but still keep catching the same trains. Get home, fall asleep through exhaustion. On a Saturday, replace getting home with taking the busiest daytrippers train up to Matlock and getting home at gone 1330.

If we took a survey of the depot I'm sure more would prefer them than not.

 

[Kneedown]

Have a leisurely breakfast at Spoons on the second (The only plus point!)

They do do a pretty decent eggs benedict there!

 

[317 forever]

It does.
The branding must be East Midlands Railway.
A subtle change but an important one none the less.
That means it's highly likely the Stagecoach colours will disappear, even if it's them running the service as I can't see using Stagecoach branding colours with a different brand name, but I could be proved wrong.

New franchises seem to be taking up standard names irrespective of owners. Examples are ScotRail, Thameslink, TransPennine Express and Northern. So, I am not surprised by the decision in advance of the trading name East Midlands Railway.

 

[317 forever]

Wouldn’t it be a waste of tome and money though if let’s say Stagecoach retained the franchise and repainted all the trains.

This is the kind of thing that happened when First retained TransPennine Express and seriously shrank the reference to First.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

As long as the branding is a nice modernist design which is marketable I wouldn't be overly concerned. Hopefully they will not make the same mistakes as on Thameslink with the white and blue doors. Horrible tacky plain design and they always look messy because they dont hide the mud very well.

 

[northwichcat]

This is the kind of thing that happened when First retained TransPennine Express and seriously shrank the reference to First.

Technically they didn't retain the franchise though. The old one was a First/Kelios franchise and the old TPE logo contained some subtle Kelios branding.

 

[KashmireHawker]

New franchises seem to be taking up standard names irrespective of owners. Examples are ScotRail, Thameslink, TransPennine Express and Northern. So, I am not surprised by the decision in advance of the trading name East Midlands Railway.

For the record and something may have a small impact in having it as EMR, East Midlands Railway Limited is a dormant company owned by Go-Ahead

 

[James90012]

It reads to me that East Midlands Railway is a capitalised term used to refer to the brand (whatever that would be) in the ITT, and doesn't actually refer to the brand itself.

Basically, I don't think EMR is specified although it follows that some Bidders may apply it.

 

[bunnahabhain]

It reads to me that East Midlands Railway is a capitalised term used to refer to the brand (whatever that would be) in the ITT, and doesn't actually refer to the brand itself.

Basically, I don't think EMR is specified although it follows that some Bidders may apply it.

No, it is the name that will be used.

 

[James90012]

No, it is the name that will be used.

We'll see.