East Midlands Chip and Pin only accepts certain cards.

[thenorthern]

The other day I was on an East Midlands Train and I noticed a passenger have a dispute with the conductor because his card wasn't accepted by the chip and pin and I was wondering what the rules are on this and if its the rail company at fault for having bad equipment or the passenger for not travelling with the correct payment type.

I have Lloyds TSB and Royal Bank of Scotland debit cards both of which the chip and pin rejects but I normally get it swiped and I can then sign for it so I never have had a major problem but does this happen with anyone else?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

My card has failed most times with EMT, each time the guard putting it down to a dodgy machine. The guards have input the card number and possibly a few other details and then swiped it and printed me out a ticket to sign.

 

[sarahj]

Had a dispute with a passenger tonight. Boarded at Worthing, where there are ticket machines and ticket office. Got right on the front of the train. When I found him gave me a card which declined. Said I will sign for it. One problem, he had not signed the card, so I refused to take it. He said he had no other ID on him at all to confirm it was his card. He was also getting off at a station where the exit was at the rear of the train, yet for some reason he had boarded the front. :roll:

 

[reb0118]

One problem, he had not signed the card..........He said he had no other ID on him at all to confirm it was his card

Well if he can't prove it's his card you can not give it back to him. I did that once (and NB once only after all the grief I got later). Chap has card declined on train, gets ready to put it though on the swipe and whilst obtaining an authorisation code notices that it states "Miss XXX" on the card, informs the helpline that the cardholder is not present and some random bloke claiming to be her boyfriend is using it. Told to retain & destroy card. Boyfriend not amused.

 

[thenorthern]

With me it goes "pin ok" then "declined" on the chip and pin machine's screen which I guess means that the card and pin are ok but the transaction has failed, the conductors normally blame it on the chip of my card however both my cards have different style chips in them and it rejects them both.

Neither of my cards are signed but I do carry a drivers licence with me which I am told is acceptable ID for signing.

 

[anme]

Neither of my cards are signed but I do carry a drivers licence with me which I am told is acceptable ID for signing.

Just curious - why have you not signed the cards? Are the cards technically valid if not signed?

 

[thenorthern]

Just curious - why have you not signed the cards? Are the cards technically valid if not signed?

Just habit, I think it says "not valid unless signed" but I have used it many times and never had a problem.

 

[bb21]

If you don't sign the card then the conductor can rightly refuse to allow you to sign the sales voucher.

Just because a card has a chip & pin mechanism does not mean that it can always be accepted onboard. There are many reasons why not, and the most common one is that some of them are online only cards, which means that every transaction must be authorised by your bank. The chip & pin device the train companies currently use are not online, so can only accept cards that have offline authorisation, but even these cards have a limit as to how much can be processed without the need to go online.

There are also other possibilities and faulty machine is certainly one.

(Yes, National Rail publicity should be clearer about this and the equipment used could be better. These have both been discussed to death on here and I have no wish to start another one.)

 

[WillPS]

One day they'll catch up with the branches of Pumpkin on the platform and authorise using a mobile data connection of some sort. Maybe.

 

[thenorthern]

Just because a card has a chip & pin mechanism does not mean that it can always be accepted onboard. There are many reasons why not, and the most common one is that some of them are online only cards, which means that every transaction must be authorised by your bank. The chip & pin device the train companies currently use are not online, so can only accept cards that have offline authorisation, but even these cards have a limit as to how much can be processed without the need to go online.

I never knew that, cheers.

 

[Clip]

One day they'll catch up with the branches of Pumpkin on the platform and authorise using a mobile data connection of some sort. Maybe.

How do you know that just doesnt send a signal back to the docking station inside Pumpkin which then does it as normal through a phone line?

 

[anme]

Just habit, I think it says "not valid unless signed" but I have used it many times and never had a problem.

It does mean that someone can steal the cards, sign them, damage the chip and go on a shopping spree.

 

[IanXC]

It does mean that someone can steal the cards, sign them, damage the chip and go on a shopping spree.

Indeed, I have seen a couple of cases where this happened, the card was subsequently discovered, and the account holder held liable for the transactions. So yes you may wish to sign the card!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(Yes, National Rail publicity should be clearer about this and the equipment used could be better. These have both been discussed to death on here and I have no wish to start another one.)

Except they'd be in breach of the card scheme rules, as they don't allow for discrimination between cards which are branded the same!

 

[thenorthern]

It does mean that someone can steal the cards, sign them, damage the chip and go on a shopping spree.

I don't think you can sign in most places I know that most shops stopped allowing people to sign on Valentines Day 2006 using the (I 'heart' my pin scheme), the train and for a while B&M were the only places I was aware of that still allowed signing but I may be wrong.

Indeed, I have seen a couple of cases where this happened, the card was subsequently discovered, and the account holder held liable for the transactions. So yes you may wish to sign the card!

I have signed it now.

 

[WillPS]

How do you know that just doesnt send a signal back to the docking station inside Pumpkin which then does it as normal through a phone line?

Because the Sagem devices used by SSP at stations say 'EE' (previously 'Orange') and state their connection quality and type. They *even* allow contactless cards if the direction of the wind suits.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think you can sign in most places I know that most shops stopped allowing people to sign on Valentines Day 2006 using the (I 'heart' my pin scheme), the train and for a while B&M were the only places I was aware of that still allowed signing but I may be wrong.

Wetherspoons were also a late adopter of Chip & Pin; probably a few more too. But yes, up to 14/02/06 most retailers accepted either (and if you had a Chip you could still state that you'd prefer to sign). After that date the only time using the magnetic stripe was allowed was when the Chip failed (as in, could not be read rather than gets declined), but you can sabotage the chip relatively easily.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Don't forget that there's a third type of card, namely "Chip and Signature". Good for confusing certain retailers...

It's also possible, in some cases, to sign with a "Chip and PIN" card, though this is purely at the issuing bank's discretion and most will automatically decline if you try it.

 

[WillPS]

Don't forget that there's a third type of card, namely "Chip and Signature". Good for confusing certain retailers...

It's also possible, in some cases, to sign with a "Chip and PIN" card, though this is purely at the issuing bank's discretion and most will automatically decline if you try it.

When I worked in retail I saw half a dozen UK-issued chip and signature cards (mainly from blind customers), and hundreds of 'Bank of China' ones. At my first place of work I could swipe any card and it would process (although I was discouraged from doing so), at my second swiping a card with a chip would bring up a prompt to use the chip (unless the chip & pin unit stated 'use mag stripe'); I don't think this was the bank declining, but the way the tills were programmed.

 

[island]

If you don't sign the card then the conductor can rightly refuse to allow you to sign the sales voucher.

Actually, the correct process is for the guard to ask the customer for ID bearing their photograph and signature, and if this is presented, make a voice authorisation request over the telephone and process the transaction normally, asking the customer to sign the card and the receipt, and comparing the signatures to verify they match.

 

[thenorthern]

Looking back though the Avantix Mobile was introduced in 2002 before even trials for chip and Pin were introduced so there is no way they could have even thought of the problem at the time. I would also guess that's why the swipe mechanism is built into the Avantix but the Chip and Pin isn't.

I can't remember if the SPORTIS ticket system ever had Chip and Pin but I do remember that it was used until 2006 after the "I 'love' my pin scheme" date.

 

[Flamingo]

Actually, the correct process is for the guard to ask the customer for ID bearing their photograph and signature, and if this is presented, make a voice authorisation request over the telephone and process the transaction normally, asking the customer to sign the card and the receipt, and comparing the signatures to verify they match.

Of course we do

 

[Captain Chaos]

SPORTIS never allowed for Chip and PIN. All cards were just swiped through the machine, Chip and PIN or not. Some cards, notably HSBC Switch I think, had to be entered manually IIRC.

 

[34D]

I have a question about the actual mechanics of offline transactions.

In another thread which descended into bickering I asked whether umpteen offline transactions could be made in a period of time, and senior forum member john @ home replied:

But the card knows you have reached one of the limits, and insists the next successful transaction is online.

My question is, does the chip really 'log' each offline use?

 

[MikeWh]

My question is, does the chip really 'log' each offline use?

I believe so, yes.

 

[WillPS]

It's not a log. The chip will have stored in it an amount which can be authorised offline*. It will also tot up the total of all offline transactions which have taken place since the card last made contact online.

Example. Lets say my card has a £50 offline authorisation limit, and I've started the day with an online-authorisation so my offline transaction total is at 0.

Over the next 3 hours, I then use my card 3 times, each for an offline transaction worth £15. Each are authorised thusly.

0.00 (current total) + 15 = 15 - that's below the £50, authorise
15 (revised total) + 15 = 30 - still below £50, authorise
30 + 15 = 45 - still below £50m authorise.

If I then attempt to do another offline transaction for £15, the chip will decline, since it will be over its limit of £50.

After being declined offline, I go to McDonalds and place an order that comes to £15 - this is authorised online; and will reset my offline transaction counter to 0.

*This limit can be affected dynamically - e.g. your bank can change the offline transaction limit without issuing you with a new card.

 

[thenorthern]

I have a question about the actual mechanics of offline transactions.

In another thread which descended into bickering I asked whether umpteen offline transactions could be made in a period of time, and senior forum member john @ home replied:



My question is, does the chip really 'log' each offline use?

I don't think it does I think the Avantix or the Chip and Pin store the transaction information which is then read at a later date.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hypothetically could GSM-R be used for for online transactions?

 

[Deerfold]

I don't think it does I think the Avantix or the Chip and Pin store the transaction information which is then read at a later date.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hypothetically could GSM-R be used for for online transactions?

As willPS has said, it's not a log as such, just a tot of how much is spent between on-line transactions.

 

[34D]

After being declined offline, I go to McDonalds and place an order that comes to £15 - this is authorised online; and will reset my offline transaction counter to 0.

Does the online transaction at McDonald's then transfer the info to the bank about the earlier three? Or does that not happen until those three companies do their uploads?

 

[Deerfold]

Does the online transaction at McDonald's then transfer the info to the bank about the earlier three? Or does that not happen until those three companies do their uploads?

No, it just resets the card's counter.

 

[SussexMan]

No, it just resets the card's counter.

So how does that help? I've spent up to my offline max, then I use it online. The counter is reset. I could keep doing that so can't see what purpose the reset does. If no information about the offline transactions is sent then the bank won't know what has been spent offline so why would they want to reset the counter?

Can you explain?

 

[anme]

So how does that help? I've spent up to my offline max, then I use it online. The counter is reset. I could keep doing that so can't see what purpose the reset does. If no information about the offline transactions is sent then the bank won't know what has been spent offline so why would they want to reset the counter?

Can you explain?

It shows how much the user has spent (or tried to spend) since the card was last reset. This includes offline transactions that may not have been processed yet. This information is (I assume) sent to the bank from the MacDonalds terminal in the example above, and the bank will record the value of the counter and decide whether to reset it.

So it provides some protection by limiting how much can be spent without an online authorisation - not just in a single transaction, but also in a number of small transactions.