East Croydon to Crystal Palace or Anerley

[eAi]

This may be the wrong place to ask, but it seems odd that there are no stopping trains between East Croydon and London Bridge in the evening rush hour. This means you have to go to Norwood Junction and change, which means if you’re going you Anerley you spend 7 minutes on trains and 15 minutes waiting at Norwood Junction. Surely 2 of the 10 trains per hour could run as stopping services to London Bridge?

Ideally I want to go from East Croydon to Crystal Palace, but the timetabling of this connection is even worse, with a 22 minute wait at Norwood Junction for a 9 minute on-train journey.

There must be other people who commute north from Croydon? So many journeys are made impractical by this.

Is there any process through which these sorts of issues can be formally raised? Are they the responsibility of the TOC?

 

[JonathanH]

This may be the wrong place to ask, but it seems odd that there are no stopping trains between East Croydon and London Bridge in the evening rush hour. This means you have to go to Norwood Junction and change, which means if you’re going you Anerley you spend 7 minutes on trains and 15 minutes waiting at Norwood Junction. Surely 2 of the 10 trains per hour could run as stopping services to London Bridge?

Ideally I want to go from East Croydon to Crystal Palace, but the timetabling of this connection is even worse, with a 22 minute wait at Norwood Junction for a 9 minute on-train journey.

There must be other people who commute north from Croydon? So many journeys are made impractical by this.

Is there any process through which these sorts of issues can be formally raised? Are they the responsibility of the TOC?

No room at Windmill Bridge Junction for more services so something has to give. That is why there is a massive project in development to rebuild both East Croydon and this junction.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...s/south-east/croydon-area-remodelling-scheme/

It is easier to walk from East Croydon to West Croydon now than it used to be (although still a nuisance).

 

[jfisher21]

Tram to west croydon is also an option. I do this journey 5 days a week at the moment, forest hill - three bridges or goring by sea!

 

[eAi]

I understand about Windmill Bridge junction, at least to some extent, but I guess I’m not talking about any extra trains being run - just some using the slow lines from Norwood Junction north. Surely there’s a way for them to cross over from fast to slow lines somewhere between Windmill Bridge Junction and Norwood Junction?

Alternatively just timing the connections a bit better could make a big difference.

I do the walk from East to West Croydon most days too, it’s not too far, but it’s still a silly state of affairs that a “hub” station like East Croydon has such poor connections to a lot of places people commute from in the rush hour and instead is giving us more fast trains that aren’t that busy.

 

[swt_passenger]

The biggest problem is likely to be all the LO trains that are filling the slow lines north of Sydenham? TfL have plans to run even more in the peaks, that’s part of the reason for the number of 710s ordered.

 

[JonathanH]

I understand about Windmill Bridge junction, at least to some extent, but I guess I’m not talking about any extra trains being run - just some using the slow lines from Norwood Junction north. Surely there’s a way for them to cross over from fast to slow lines somewhere between Windmill Bridge Junction and Norwood Junction?

The problem is also where to send them south of East Croydon. Terminating trains at East Croydon at the current time isn't a great idea and there are congestion problems south to East Croydon. Most of the people travelling on the slow lines from south of Croydon want fast services to London.

The thing about Windmill Bridge Junction is that people want services on every branch of the X - ie connections to London Bridge and Victoria from all stations south of the junction - there are just too many combinations to choose from.

The biggest problem is likely to be all the LO trains that are filling the slow lines north of Sydenham? TfL have plans to run even more in the peaks, that’s part of the reason for the number of 710s ordered.

Yes, and matching up capacity on the slow lines with the paths south of East Croydon.

 

[30907]

The best you could hope for is additional NWD stops on another route - the Tats and Cats would be the obvious one, but the up slow at NWD is occupied at just the wrong moment...

 

[eAi]

Thanks for everyone’s answers. I agree it must be related to Windmill Bridge Junction. I don’t think it can be related to other trains on the slow line - as these are the same in the peak and off peak.

The off-peak trains terminate at Coulsdon Town.

Out of interest, is there any process by which TOCs evaluate these sorts of things - how do they decide to sacrifice one route for another? It must be hard to evaluate demand. Is this dictated by DfT? Or is it just a case that it’s been like this for years so nobody can get away with changing it?

 

[JonathanH]

The off-peak trains terminate at Coulsdon Town.

In the evening peak, there are additional Thameslink trains to East Grinstead, Horsham (on the slow line - it uses the fast off-peak), Caterham & Tattenham Corner (from Victoria) so no space for the through service from the Sydenham slow lines.

Out of interest, is there any process by which TOCs evaluate these sorts of things - how do they decide to sacrifice one route for another? It must be hard to evaluate demand. Is this dictated by DfT? Or is it just a case that it’s been like this for years so nobody can get away with changing it?

There was a major consultation. They were absolutely aware of the demand between South London and East Croydon but also aware of other people they had to cater for.

 

[LLivery]

It's strange, it feels like the Southern Metro hasn't been so reliable, but at the same time, the Sydenham route timetable is irritating. Departing London Bridge at uneven intervals, waiting at red signals for several mins as it's now timetabled to take 10-11 mins to do NXG to London Bridge, no direct East Croydon services for several hours of the day, a 7ish min wait at Crystal Palace and an odd Sunday service. Our journey times have got longer, while places like East Grinstead and Littlehampton benefit from Thameslink.

We got LO, but that's now insanely overcrowded in the peaks and often end up delaying Southern (how things have changed). The 2 extra trains per hour to Palace will just make it more unreliable while not adding capacity towards Croydon where it's needed.

Out of interest, is there any process by which TOCs evaluate these sorts of things - how do they decide to sacrifice one route for another? It must be hard to evaluate demand. Is this dictated by DfT? Or is it just a case that it’s been like this for years so nobody can get away with changing it?

There was a consultation which originally had a worse timetable proposed, diverting all the old London Bridge - Caterham trains to West Croydon. They acknowledged the high numbers of people travelling south through ECR and through the Thameslink core, but capacity. Unfortunately, the Rainham service timing isn't compatible with the Sydenham route which would've been far more logical (and useful).

 

[MML]

I'm sure a half hourly service could be run London Blackfriars - Herne Hill - Crystal Palace - Norwood Jctn - East Croydon - Redhill - Tonbridge. 8-car units should suffice if stock is available. 319s ?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure a half hourly service could be run London Blackfriars - Herne Hill - Crystal Palace - Norwood Jctn - East Croydon - Redhill - Tonbridge. 8-car units should suffice if stock is available. 319s ?

The bay platforms at Blackfriars are already reserved for other Southern Metro services once the full Thameslink timetable is operating...

 

[cle]

The bay platforms at Blackfriars are already reserved for other Southern Metro services once the full Thameslink timetable is operating...

Are these 2tph or 4tph to London Bridge via loop?

Either way, those bays should be turning 2-3tph each minimum. They're very underworked. And something via Herne Hill, with the least conflicts throughout (I'd say via Streatham) seems the best use. Or more via West Dulwich.

I don't mind the stopping pattern MML suggested though. Tonbridge lost its direct services (can it take 8 cars?) - so that might be interesting. Slow journey, but good for a lot of the interchanges in the South London network.

 

[westcoaster]

I'm sure a half hourly service could be run London Blackfriars - Herne Hill - Crystal Palace - Norwood Jctn - East Croydon - Redhill - Tonbridge. 8-car units should suffice if stock is available. 319s ?

Why stop at Tonbridge carry on to sevenoaks and join back up with the services back to Blackfriars via Bromley. One massive loop.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm sure a half hourly service could be run London Blackfriars - Herne Hill - Crystal Palace - Norwood Jctn - East Croydon - Redhill - Tonbridge. 8-car units should suffice if stock is available. 319s ?

Open RTT, look at the existing services and see whether you can path your extra train through the existing services. You will probably find that you can't.

Who does the extension to Tonbridge benefit exactly? Have you considered the short platforms on the line from Redhill and locking out the rear unit at Redhill.

Either way, those bays should be turning 2-3tph each minimum. They're very underworked. And something via Herne Hill, with the least conflicts throughout (I'd say via Streatham) seems the best use. Or more via West Dulwich.

It is a bit ironic that Thameslink ran 4tph via Crystal Palace during the London Bridge closure yet a stopping service can't be pathed over the route you suggest now Thameslink isn't running that way. Nevertheless, I doubt there is room.

 

[yorkie]

I'm sure a half hourly service could be run London Blackfriars - Herne Hill - Crystal Palace - Norwood Jctn - East Croydon - Redhill - Tonbridge. 8-car units should suffice if stock is available. 319s ?

Why stop at Tonbridge carry on to sevenoaks and join back up with the services back to Blackfriars via Bromley. One massive loop.

If anyone wishes to post any suggestions for service provision changes please post these in the Speculative Ideas section.

You are then welcome to provide a link to your post here. Thanks

 

[Timmyd]

Really agree with the above comments. West Norwood to Gatwick should be an easy one change journey, but nothing to ECR and poor connections in the reverse at Norwood Junction. Forest Hill also used to have a decent East Croydon service. What I can’t fathom is why so much is sent to West Croydon which is badly located for anything and useless for connections.

Another poor consequence of the new timetable is that with the almost simultaneous departures from LBG with the trains via Peckham, and long waits at Crystal Palace, the LBG-VIC trains are now useless for passengers heading for LBG from beyond Palace

 

[JonathanH]

What I can’t fathom is why so much is sent to West Croydon which is badly located for anything and useless for connections.

Three reasons:

Grade separated junction from Norwood Junction to West Croydon at Windmill Bridge Junction and limited other traffic to interact with from the Selhurst route.

Convenient reversal facilities at West Croydon / Sutton / Epsom

Competing priorities for scarce platform space at East Croydon.

 

[hwl]

Really agree with the above comments. West Norwood to Gatwick should be an easy one change journey, but nothing to ECR and poor connections in the reverse at Norwood Junction. Forest Hill also used to have a decent East Croydon service. What I can’t fathom is why so much is sent to West Croydon which is badly located for anything and useless for connections.

Another poor consequence of the new timetable is that with the almost simultaneous departures from LBG with the trains via Peckham, and long waits at Crystal Palace, the LBG-VIC trains are now useless for passengers heading for LBG from beyond Palace

Agreed on the uselessness of West Croydon which will get worse a time goes on.
There used to be direct Palace to East Croydon services unfortunately they were axed in the previous "mini" timetable rejig to enable TfL to start London Overground services at which point many Palace service Start and End Points where cut and rejoined in the Palace - Sydenham - Norwood Jn triangle.
e.g. VIC - Beckenham Jn was chopped and the Palace - Beckenham Jn bit was added to the London Bridge - (Tulse Hill) - Palace leg of the former East Croydon services etc. One result was that the VIC - Palace - LBG service no longer had the same services connected either side of Palace, the VIC - Palace element has the same traditional timings but it effectively connected to different service the other side Palace to /from LBG resulting in a much bigger wait at Palace. Last May's timetable change then tried to sort out the previous bodges but did so in the worst possible ways for effective service levels and connectivity but much better reliability.

The originally planned metro service changes were only partly implemented due to the delay to full Thameslink and greater use of Blackfriars and LBG terminating platforms.