East Cost Franchise Retender

[Failed Unit]

I'd rather see the ECML open access operations absorbed into the East Coast franchise, where I think those destinations would be better served: The Newark terminators could become a bi-hourly service to/from Hull, replacing Hull Trains, GCs' Bradford services could operate as an extension of ECs' existing Leeds services to provide a more attractive, less tediously slow service. This would probably be less palatable now that the IEP order has been scaled back with regards to the East Coast, although then again it might provide more justification for the IEP trains.

As part of a franchised TOC, services from London to the likes of Hull and Bradford would be relatively safeguarded, whereas they are always going to be under threat of disappearing while operated under an open access agreement.

I don't disagree, but we have to give open access the rights to operate.

Grand Central's Sunderland service could be the extension of the York stopper for example.

But then if open access take the risk for it to be absorbed into a franchise no-one will ever form such an operator. Heads I win, tails you lose.

 

[class26]

Unfortunately I can't disagree with you there :cry:

The only realistic hope of Lincoln seeing a regular service from London is via the joint line if an operator uses it for route knowledge. Again not really going to happen considering the time penalty.

Peterborough - Doncaster is typically 50mins - 1 hour depending on the number of stops. I suspect that via Lincoln post improvements you will stuggle to get Peterborough - Lincoln under 90 minutes. There is no way Grand Central / Hull trains would gain enough revenue from Lincoln customers for the detour to off-set what they lose for the slower journey (At least 30 minutes) from Hull / Bradford or Sunderland.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Yes I can see why, yes you are 4 track until South of Grantham, but then I don't think the slows are 100mph. Then you have to squeeze it on the 2 track to Retford. Probably hold at Retford for a little while to let some 125mph trains to pass. Then rush to Doncaster. I suspect if paths could be found they may be a little slow and if any problem happened they WAGN trains would be stuck in loops.

Why do you think Peterborough - Lincoln would be 90 mins post Jint line modernisation ? Look at the current timetable. It only takes 84 minutes NOW !! Thats with a line speed of 55 - 60 mph and its going up to 75 mph so I would have thought in the region of 70 - 75 mins was possible ?

 

[Failed Unit]

Why do you think Peterborough - Lincoln would be 90 mins post Jint line modernisation ? Look at the current timetable. It only takes 84 minutes NOW !! Thats with a line speed of 55 - 60 mph and its going up to 75 mph so I would have thought in the region of 70 - 75 mins was possible ?

Because you need to get to Doncaster.

Peterborough - Lincoln may get down to 50 minutes non stop and avoiding Sleaford. Then Lincoln - Doncaster maybe 35 minutes. Which is why I am looking at about 90 minutes with stops.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The absolute killer on the WAGN attempt to get to Donny (apart from very sketchy demand forecasting and no decent peak services) - was the no knowledge as to how to reverse from northbound to southbound without screwing up the whole operational platforming at Donny.

The whole excercise "made" GNER run the extra services to Leeds (which really - they did not want to do !)

Overall, a good compromise - and interesting how the ECML was the pioneer of open access, and one which has been retained to this day. WCML never came under attack apart from GB Rail trying to get to Northampton from Ipswich !

 

[Manchester77]

Hi all. This is my rough outline of fares and train services. I will apologise beforehand to the people who don't like it. I live in Manchester so I am not as familiar as others may be. Having said this I do travel on quite often. Anyway here it is:
Train Services: -
1tph London Kings Cross to Edinburgh Fast(Calling only at Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Newcastel and Edinburgh Waverly)
1tph London Kings Cross to Edinburgh stopping (Calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverly)
1tph London Kings Cross to Newcastle (Calling at Stephanage, Peterborugh, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, York, Newcastle)
1tph London Kings Cross to Leeds (Calling at Peterborugh, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds) (1tp2h continuing to Bradford)
1tp2h London Kings Cross to Harrogate (Calling at Peterborugh, Doncaster, Leeds, Harogate)
1tp2h London Kings Cross to Skipton (Calling at Peterborugh, Retford, Wakefeild Westgate, Leeds, Skipton)
1tp2h London Kings Cross to Hull (Calling at Stevanage, Grantham, Doncaster, Selby, Brough, Hull)
1tph London Kings Cross to Lincoln (Calling at Finsbury Park, Grantham, Lincoln)
1tp2h London Kings Cross to York (Calling at Peterborugh, Doncaster, York)
1tp2h London Kings Cross to Aberdeen (Calling at York, Newcastle, Edinburgh Wavely, Haymarket, Aberdeen)
1tp2h London Kings Cross to Aberdeen (Calling at all stations that the service now calls at)
2tp4h London Kings Cross to Glasgow Central (Calling at all fast Edinburgh stations plus Haymarket, Motherwell, Glasgow Central)
1tp2h London Kings Cross to Inverness (Calling at all fast Edinburgh stations plus Haymarket, Falkirk, Stirling, Gleneagles, Perth, Pitlockry, Kingusse, Aviemore, Inverness)
These would use the current East Coast train fleet of 30 IC225 sets and 14 IC125 sets. Post ICEP there will be new bi mode trains and if I was franchise owner I would order 20 sets each of nine cars formed of 6 standard class and 3 first class. If there aren't enough 225s I'd personally either order new ICEP electric trains or acquire some class 90s and the cascaded mark 3 coaches plus DVTs.
Fares: -
I'd like to keep it simple but practice so I am just doing it for certain, main services.
LGX to EDB:
£15 - standard single
£30 - standard return
£20 - peak standard single
£40 - peak standard return
£20 - first class single
£40 - first class return
£30 - peak first class single
£60 - peak first class return
My way of working fares is offer a competitive price. The way the fares work with me is:
X is my single fare. This is doubled to get my off peak standard return. For peak I add £5 onto my single fare for off peak (x+5).
F is my single first class fare. This is double to get my return first for off peak. Basically the same for as X.


Again, I apologise to anybody who doesn't like this in advance

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't disagree, but we have to give open access the rights to operate.

Grand Central's Sunderland service could be the extension of the York stopper for example.

But then if open access take the risk for it to be absorbed into a franchise no-one will ever form such an operator. Heads I win, tails you lose.

Very true. I'm thinking in terms that are closer to utopian than the reality I suppose.

 

[Deerfold]

Hi all. This is my rough outline of fares and train services. I will apologise beforehand to the people who don't like it. I live in Manchester so I am not as familiar as others may be. Having said this I do travel on quite often. Anyway here it is:
Train Services: -
...
Again, I apologise to anybody who doesn't like this in advance

That *is* hilarious.

 

[calc7]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but is that a trolling suggestion?

 

[tbtc]

I don't disagree, but we have to give open access the rights to operate.

Grand Central's Sunderland service could be the extension of the York stopper for example.

But then if open access take the risk for it to be absorbed into a franchise no-one will ever form such an operator. Heads I win, tails you lose.

I'm not a fan of Open Access.

But if we accept that the current London - Hull and Sunderland services are going to continue then I think we should at least path them into a common pattern with other ECML services...

 

[David10]

Hi all. This is my rough outline of fares and train services. I will apologise beforehand to the people who don't like it. I live in Manchester so I am not as familiar as others may be. Having said this I do travel on quite often. Anyway here it is:
Train Services: -
...
Again, I apologise to anybody who doesn't like this in advance:

Meanwhile back on planet earth...all shacks to Edinburgh, hourly service to Aberdeen, £60 first class return to Edinburgh, obviously a lack of understanding how the railway really works.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm not a fan of Open Access.

But if we accept that the current London - Hull and Sunderland services are going to continue then I think we should at least path them into a common pattern with other ECML services...

Again I couldn't agree more

Lets say the paths out of Kings Cross were (as far as York / Leeds)

0000 York
0005 Peterborough, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds
0008 Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, York
0020 Stevenage, Peterborough, Doncaster
0030 Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York
0035 Stevenage, Grantham, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds
0050 Peterborough, Doncaster,

Then Hull trains, Grand Central could bid for the 0008 if they wish as long as they stopped at all the stations on that path. This could give the Newark & Grantham the 2 trains per hour it wants. The problem is of course if what if no-one wants the xx08 path? Grand Central may prefer to have the 0020 path for the faster journey. I don't know if it would be legal for the ORR to say if you want to operate you must call at x, y and z, or even if East Coast would want them to.

Oh and the paths illastrate a point rather than a suggestion of the service. I am not a train planner so I am not claiming they will work!

But you could have for example.

1000 Aberdeen (east coast as now)
1005 Leeds (east coast as now)
1008 Sunderland (Grand Central)
1020 Cleethorpes via Lincoln Central and Spalding (Mickey Mouse railways)
1030 Edinburgh (east coast as now)
1035 Leeds (east Coast as now)
1050 Hull Trains

With an incentive of a cheaper path on the 1008 to ensure Retford gets its hourly service.

 

[David10]

The Open Access Operators will stop as often as they can as it gives them a cut of the Orcats pie.

 

[Failed Unit]

The Open Access Operators will stop as often as they can as it gives them a cut of the Orcats pie.

You are right, if Grand Central were forced to stop a Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford and Doncaster as a condition to getting thier 1608 path for the West Yorkshire service they wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it.

If they were forced to then stop the 1537 Bradford Interchage - London service at Retford (1738), Newark (1754) etc they would be happy to do so if it got them the path.

I would infact argue it is a better use of the path. I wonder what East Coast would do with the spare set.

 

[Aictos]

The absolute killer on the WAGN attempt to get to Donny (apart from very sketchy demand forecasting and no decent peak services) - was the no knowledge as to how to reverse from northbound to southbound without screwing up the whole operational platforming at Donny.

The whole excercise "made" GNER run the extra services to Leeds (which really - they did not want to do !)

Overall, a good compromise - and interesting how the ECML was the pioneer of open access, and one which has been retained to this day. WCML never came under attack apart from GB Rail trying to get to Northampton from Ipswich !

I didn't know GB Rail was looking at a Ipswich to Northampton service,

What can you tell us about it please?

 

[Bald Rick]

I didn't know GB Rail was looking at a Ipswich to Northampton service,

What can you tell us about it please?

It didn't happen, along with their Southampton-Waterloo proposal (hence the fleet of 73s, which they retain to this day).

 

[class26]

Because you need to get to Doncaster.

Peterborough - Lincoln may get down to 50 minutes non stop and avoiding Sleaford. Then Lincoln - Doncaster maybe 35 minutes. Which is why I am looking at about 90 minutes with stops.

Sorry , misread your post.!!

 

[Bald Rick]

Fares: -
I'd like to keep it simple but practice so I am just doing it for certain, main services.
LGX to EDB:
£15 - standard single
£30 - standard return
£20 - peak standard single
£40 - peak standard return
£20 - first class single
£40 - first class return
£30 - peak first class single
£60 - peak first class return

Perhaps LGX is the new code for Longniddry; but I don't think EC call there...

 

[David10]

It didn't happen, along with their Southampton-Waterloo proposal (hence the fleet of 73s, which they retain to this day).

Recall GB Railways signed a deal giving them an option to purchase ex Gatwick Express 73/2s and Mk2s when they became available. Evidently they took up the option with several moved to Anglia's Crown Point depot in 2003 before going to GBRf's Peterborough depot.

 

[Manchester77]

Perhaps LGX is the new code for Longniddry; but I don't think EC call there...

Sorry it's kings cross' code but my iPad "corrected" it. I mustn't have seen that in the many typos.
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Read your comments on my seemingly controversial ECML thing.
I'm not gonna say anything cos your all probably right about it being a little bit s**t. But hey, at least it's not the real ECML timetable

 

[Retorus]

Are there any stations that East Coast could realistically call at that they don't already? I'm not familiar with their operations so I have no idea!

 

[Clip]

Sorry it's kings cross' code but my iPad "corrected" it. I mustn't have seen that in the many typos.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Read your comments on my seemingly controversial ECML thing.
I'm not gonna say anything cos your all probably right about it being a little bit s**t. But hey, at least it's not the real ECML timetable

Im not sure most people who replied were wary about the timings nor stopping pattern but more the very cheap fares which would probably put them out of business within a year if not sooner.

 

[Deerfold]

Im not sure most people who replied were wary about the timings nor stopping pattern but more the very cheap fares which would probably put them out of business within a year if not sooner.

And the requirememt for about twice as many trains, despite losing calling points such as Shipley and Keighley.

 

[calc7]

Are there any stations that East Coast could realistically call at that they don't already? I'm not familiar with their operations so I have no idea!

Huntingdon's one that springs to mind. They're very unlikely to add extra stops up north as I doubt it would add much marginal ORCATS revenue anyway.

In GNER days I seem to remember they called one or two a day at Hatfield - can anybody confirm or deny this?

 

[Clip]

And the requirememt for about twice as many trains, despite losing calling points such as Shipley and Keighley.

It was a bit long so didnt read it all but the fares stuck out the most to me.

 

[Deerfold]

Huntingdon's one that springs to mind. They're very unlikely to add extra stops up north as I doubt it would add much marginal ORCATS revenue anyway.

In GNER days I seem to remember they called one or two a day at Hatfield - can anybody confirm or deny this?

I know they still call at Huntingdon during some engineering work when there are fewer FCC trains calling. I never called at Hatfield but only started using GNER about 6 months before the end.

 

[tbtc]

Are there any stations that East Coast could realistically call at that they don't already? I'm not familiar with their operations so I have no idea!

Not really - GNER had plans for an Edinburgh "Parkway" station near Mussleburgh which would have been handy for the Edinburgh Bypass/ easy to drive to from much of the Lothians etc, but the current station at Mussleburgh couldn't cope with such services.

Finsbury Park (for commuters to "the city")?

 

[Aictos]

Finsbury Park (for commuters to "the city")?

Why? Kings Cross is only 5 to 7 minutes away and has more National Rail and LUL connections available to passengers.

None of the other Inter City operations that terminate/start at London also call at a station barely a few minutes away so why should the ECML be any different?

If anything, East Coast should stop more services at Stevenage at the weekends as it's a poor service compared to Monday to Friday.

 

[Zoe]

None of the other Inter City operations that terminate/start at London also call at a station barely a few minutes away so why should the ECML be any different?

Some intercity services from Liverpool Street do call at Stratford.

 

[David10]

Why? Kings Cross is only 5 to 7 minutes away and has more National Rail and LUL connections available to passengers.

Calling at Finsbury Park would allow passengers for Moorgate to change for FCC services rather than LUL Circle services at Kings Cross and Victoria & Piccadilly services. Yes these can be accessed accessed at KX, but courtesy of the one way system in operation can be quite a trek. Pathing constraints would prohibit at the moment but maybe the reinstated platform 0 will free things up in the future.

 

[Zoe]

Calling at Finsbury Park would allow passengers for Moorgate to change for FCC services rather than LUL Circle services at Kings Cross and Victoria & Piccadilly services. Yes these can be accessed accessed at KX, but courtesy of the one way system in operation can be quite a trek. Pathing constraints would prohibit at the moment but maybe the reinstated platform 0 will free things up in the future.

You could have stations just outside of the terminus on other lines also, for example a major interchange could be built at Willesden Junction on the WCML.