East Coast train cancellation

[rdwarr]

Theroetical scenario:
You are operating a train from Aberdeen to London. By the time it leaves Edinburgh it is full and standing and, as you approach Newcastle it's apparent that the train is going to get even more crowded. However, at least you are on time. What action do you take?

1. Make sure that as many seats are available as possible, perhaps by declassifying First Class.

2. Keep First as it is but try to keep everybody as comfortable as possible. Make regular announcements and see if it's possible to get some extra drinking water on board.

3. Terminate the train at Newcastle. Throw all the passengers out to wait an hour for the next train on a freezing cold platform because the only waiting room is closed for refurbishment. When the next Edinburgh-London train arrives full as well just try to cram on as many as possible giving no regard to passenger comfort or safety. Decide not to declassify First until Doncaster by which time the train is so packed that hardly and passengers can move to take advantage. Arrive at Stevenage 40 minutes late.

Answer:
Let's just say that I had one daughter last night!

 

[tsr]

Obviously the ideal option is probably the first one, even if First Class ticket holders complain. It does sound like a very unfortunate and uncomfortable set of events, although East Coast had at least four separate disruption incidents last night on the ECML, and thus had to make tough decisions. A train simply cannot always continue, although it could actually be dangerous to dump passengers on a cold station platform for an extended period of time with nowhere warm to go.

...just try to cram on as many as possible giving no regard to passenger ... safety...

This, however, may not be a particularly factual statement. Trains are far more crowded as a matter of course in the South East (don't believe me? Get the 0826 from East Croydon to London Victoria on an average weekday morning - much shorter as journeys go, but one of the most crowded you can imagine) and nobody seems to raise particular safety concerns about this. Actually, crammed trains may well be safer, given that passengers flying around are more likely to be injured. Comfort is, however, a very serious issue - it is not fun having to stand for more than 30mins or so, especially on a warm train with little room to move or get refreshments or comfort breaks. The longest time I've had the misfortune to stand continuously was only actually 93mins, in the toilet doorway on a hot and crammed 377, and that wasn't very good at all!

I do recommend you contact EC with your feedback and concerns. A seriously disrupted long-distance journey may be mitigated with compensation and their apologies, and, if explanations are provided, so much the better.

 

[The North Briton]

I agree the reasons for terminating a particular train short of destination can appear mystifying to passengers. However, and this is particularly the case with long distance operators, the choice can be between 1. terminate a train short to ensure that the right number of sets are in place to operate a full service the following day or 2. operate as many trains as possible with the full knowledge that a set imbalance will result in further cancellations in the morning. East Coast will have had the added headache of ensuring the sets are of the right traction type, as there is no route for electric trains between Doncaster and York today. Fully agree with your comments re declassifying, though.

 

[jopsuk]

Presumably the decision to terminate the train had nothing to do with the overcrowding but would have been because the train had a fault that meant it could go no further in service?

 

[transmanche]

This, however, may not be a particularly factual statement. Trains are far more crowded as a matter of course in the South East (don't believe me? Get the 0826 from East Croydon to London Victoria on an average weekday morning - much shorter as journeys go, but one of the most crowded you can imagine) and nobody seems to raise particular safety concerns about this.

In Spring 2011, the DfT identified the top ten most overcrowded services - all of which were in ex-NSE area.

There were quite a few services regularly running at around 150% of 'capacity'* - meaning that the trains had more people standing than seated. Quite an achievement on units with 3+2 seating.

* Where 'capacity' included a standing allowance of 35% of the number of seats.

 

[Ze Random One]

There may have been other reasons, unbeknownst to the lay person --
Perhaps the driver or guard were over hours due to disruption earlier in the day?
Perhaps a traincrew swap was expected as Newcastle, but due to earlier disruption, or unwell employees, or both, insufficient crew with hours and route-knowledge, that weren't needed for another service, were available.

 

[tsr]

In Spring 2011, the DfT identified the top ten most overcrowded services - all of which were in ex-NSE area.

There were quite a few services regularly running at around 150% of 'capacity'* - meaning that the trains had more people standing than seated. Quite an achievement on units with 3+2 seating.

* Where 'capacity' included a standing allowance of 35% of the number of seats.

Indeed!

I wonder how many of the services described as "full and standing" by JourneyCheck East Coast actually are, or whether that just means that every seat is presumed occupied. Obviously the OP describes a situation where the train was indeed packed out.

If that description was provided for services in the South-East, it would apply to most trains between 7am and 10am and between 4pm and 9pm, I should think!

One thing is for certain, though: it is one thing for us to talk about services in the South-East being full and standing, but, as I pointed out above, it is much worse that longer-distance journeys are made in these conditions. I do have every sympathy with people who have to stand for an extended period of time on board a train.

 

[rdwarr]

Yes, the OP was a bit tongue in cheek and my daughter, like 95% of passengers, could be termed a "lay person". But it's easy to see how frustrated customers can get in situations like the above. First train was the afternoon (14:15?) Aberdeen to King's Cross yesterday - anybody know what went wrong?

 

[142094]

For some extra detail, I'd point out that there is more than one waiting room at Newcastle, and there are many establishments both in and outside the station where you can get hot drinks/refreshments and also sit inside.

There have been numerous debates where people sometimes complain that services which have people standing are unsafe (not realising that there will be a crush load capacity), and that the railways are very safe in the first place.

I'd hope the East Coast would perhaps provide vouchers for complimentary refreshments, but in the end all the passengers should be able to get compensation under Delay Repay.

 

[The North Briton]

The crew for this service were on a northbound service which was trapped behind a failed train at Colton Junction. They eventually arrived into Newcastle at 2012, by which time the driver had been in the seat over 5 hours!

 

[yorkie]

...You are operating a train from Aberdeen to London...

What do you mean by "you are operating?" ie, whose viewpoint is this from?

What action do you take?

A guard would be in a position to take option 1 or 2, depending on their training & experiences, company policy and taking into account all available information.

Your 'option 3' is, unlike the others, a decision a TOCs control would have to take due to other factors. As you can see in one of the replies above this one, they probably had no choice but to do this given the circumstances.

 

[43167]

Yes, the OP was a bit tongue in cheek and my daughter, like 95% of passengers, could be termed a "lay person". But it's easy to see how frustrated customers can get in situations like the above. First train was the afternoon (14:15?) Aberdeen to King's Cross yesterday - anybody know what went wrong?

1451 actually.

 

[ian1944]

Though it would have done nothing for the comfort of the evicted passengers, it would have been courteous for EC to explain why the train was being terminated. Or did this happen, but it wasn't in the OP's brief to tell us?

 

[rdwarr]

Though it would have done nothing for the comfort of the evicted passengers, it would have been courteous for EC to explain why the train was being terminated. Or did this happen, but it wasn't in the OP's brief to tell us?

It didn't happen. The "termination" announcement was not made until the train pulled into Newcastle station. No other announcement or explanation was forthcoming.

I have no "brief" on this - I'm not sure what you were trying to get at there. I was just providing a sideways look at an incident that was really annoying and frustrating from a customer's viewpoint.

 

[dk1]

I had friends travelling to Newcastle yesterday for the Andre Rieu concert. They said the overcrowding was pretty bad. The onboard staff said that due to the diversion between Donny & York that only 1 train per hour was operating & that East Coast where expecting most trains to be full & standing all weekend.

 

[John55]

In Spring 2011, the DfT identified the top ten most overcrowded services - all of which were in ex-NSE area.

There were quite a few services regularly running at around 150% of 'capacity'* - meaning that the trains had more people standing than seated. Quite an achievement on units with 3+2 seating.

* Where 'capacity' included a standing allowance of 35% of the number of seats.

This is not surprising as the DfT was only monitoring train crowding in the LSE area at this time.

I understand better information my be available now but all the stories about all the overcrowded trains being in the South East (in the general media based on DfT press releases) usually failed to mention the detail that the DFT only monitored in the south east.

 

[YorkshireRider]

The crew for this service were on a northbound service which was trapped behind a failed train at Colton Junction. They eventually arrived into Newcastle at 2012, by which time the driver had been in the seat over 5 hours!

Indeed, but its unlikley there wouldnt have been a driver and guard on spare at Newcastle if need be. As has been mentioned already it was probably a decision born out of having sets in the right place for the morning, terminating this train short and sending it back to Aberdeen while i guess terminating one of the northbound Aberdeen services short and sending it back to London to make the 2330 service back to Leeds.

 

[route:oxford]

Theroetical scenario:
You are operating a train from Aberdeen to London. By the time it leaves Edinburgh it is full and standing and, as you approach Newcastle it's apparent that the train is going to get even more crowded. However, at least you are on time. What action do you take?

1. Make sure that as many seats are available as possible, perhaps by declassifying First Class.

2. Keep First as it is but try to keep everybody as comfortable as possible. Make regular announcements and see if it's possible to get some extra drinking water on board.

3. Terminate the train at Newcastle. Throw all the passengers out to wait an hour for the next train on a freezing cold platform because the only waiting room is closed for refurbishment. When the next Edinburgh-London train arrives full as well just try to cram on as many as possible giving no regard to passenger comfort or safety. Decide not to declassify First until Doncaster by which time the train is so packed that hardly and passengers can move to take advantage. Arrive at Stevenage 40 minutes late.

Answer:
Let's just say that I had one daughter last night!

1 hour wait at Newcastle, but still arrive at Stevenage only 40 minutes late.

That's not too bad.

 

[The North Briton]

Indeed, but its unlikley there wouldnt have been a driver and guard on spare at Newcastle if need be. As has been mentioned already it was probably a decision born out of having sets in the right place for the morning, terminating this train short and sending it back to Aberdeen while i guess terminating one of the northbound Aberdeen services short and sending it back to London to make the 2330 service back to Leeds.

Close, but no cigar! The failed train was an HST which was booked to finish at Heaton, so it was expedient to terminate the train from Aberdeen and send it down to take its place, as it would be required to form a service South diverted via Askern in the morning. I'm not sure it would have be that easy to find a crew to take the train South, given the poor state of the service that afternoon, it may well have been that any spare resources were already being utilised.

 

[rdwarr]

1 hour wait at Newcastle, but still arrive at Stevenage only 40 minutes late.

That's not too bad.

That's 40 minutes late for the later train. Original train was due into Stevenage at 2146, later one rolled in at about 2345.

 

[455driver]

Indeed, but its unlikely there wouldnt have been a driver and guard on spare at Newcastle if need be. As has been mentioned already it was probably a decision born out of having sets in the right place for the morning, terminating this train short and sending it back to Aberdeen while i guess terminating one of the northbound Aberdeen services short and sending it back to London to make the 2330 service back to Leeds.

What a ridiculous post-
1/ Do you have any knowledge of spare crews being available at Newcastle?
It may surprise you to know that the days of drivers and guards sitting around playing cards etc are long gone and most depots only carry the minimum amount of spares, I have actually been asked to come off my booked job 3 times this week to cover other jobs that the spares (only available from other depots) did not have the necessary route knowledge for.
2/ Why do you think control would want to terminate a train half way along its route if the train was fine and a crew were available?
3/ Supposing the stock should have ended up at Kings Cross (edit it was booked to end up at Heaton) at the end of service, and 2 above had actually happened, who would they take the train back to Aberdeen, where would the stock come from to form the allocated service the next morning?
4/do you actually have any examples of this happening or are you just making it up as you go along because answering as if it is fact when it isnt is disingenuous at best.

 

[Darandio]

I'm pretty certain Yorkshire Rider actually works for East Coast.

 

[amcluesent]

Delay Repay in for 100% refund, letter of complaint to customer services with evidence of other costs incurred as a minimum

 

[YorkshireRider]

What a ridiculous post-
1/ Do you have any knowledge of spare crews being available at Newcastle?
It may surprise you to know that the days of drivers and guards sitting around playing cards etc are long gone and most depots only carry the minimum amount of spares, I have actually been asked to come off my booked job 3 times this week to cover other jobs that the spares (only available from other depots) did not have the necessary route knowledge for.
2/ Why do you think control would want to terminate a train half way along its route if the train was fine and a crew were available?
3/ Supposing the stock should have ended up at Kings Cross at the end of service, and 2 above had actually happened, who would they take the train back to Aberdeen, where would the stock come from to form the allocated service the next morning?
4/do you actually have any examples of this happening or are you just making it up as you go along because answering as if it is fact when it isnt is disingenuous at best.

OK, chill out, i used the words 'probably' and 'guess' in the post so wasnt stating it as fact. 1/EC always have 1 evening cover driver and guard at every depot although i will admit i have no idea if they were still available at the time or had to be used earlier. 2/ There was a broken down train between Doncaster and York blocking all other trains behind it so nothing was coming north, terminating a south bound train and sending it north in these situations are common on EC (so in answer to 4 yes loads of examples).
3/ The crew to take the train back north to Aberdeen would be at Newcastle anyway. The whole point of my post was to explain how the stock would be in the right place for the morning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Close, but no cigar! The failed train was an HST which was booked to finish at Heaton, so it was expedient to terminate the train from Aberdeen and send it down to take its place, as it would be required to form a service South diverted via Askern in the morning. I'm not sure it would have be that easy to find a crew to take the train South, given the poor state of the service that afternoon, it may well have been that any spare resources were already being utilised.

OK thanks for that, so did they send the train empty stock to York or back north to Edinburgh and then back to Newcastle or just to Heaton for the night?

 

[455driver]

I'm pretty certain Yorkshire Rider actually works for East Coast.

Fair enough but if EC have spare crews sat around (with enough time remaining) to get the service far Kings Cross and them get back to base, or somewhere another crew can relieve them I would be very surprised, our lot have an advantage in that most of our routes are fairly short and they carry absolute minimal spares and I would be very surprised if EC carry many more, having crew sat on their rear ends all day is an expensive business.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OK, chill out, i used the words 'probably' and 'guess' in the post so wasnt stating it as fact. 1/EC always have 1 evening cover driver and guard at every depot although i will admit i have no idea if they were still available at the time or had to be used earlier. 2/ There was a broken down train between Doncaster and York blocking all other trains behind it so nothing was coming north, terminating a south bound train and sending it north in these situations are common on EC (so in answer to 4 yes loads of examples).
3/ The crew to take the train back north to Aberdeen would be at Newcastle anyway. The whole point of my post was to explain how the stock would be in the right place for the morning.

Ah now with the full details it becomes a bit clearer, the broken down train makes all the difference, with no crew to take it forward towards London it would have to be terminated anyway and then they would use the stock to run a service back north with whatever crew are available.

Its always easier to reply when all the facts are posted instead of select details.
That post of mine came across a bit short (again :roll and wasnt meant as a dig at you even though the start of it isnt very nice.

Off to rip the washing machine apart now!

 

[YorkshireRider]

No worries, I should have mentioned the broken down train in the original post.

 

[ian1944]

It didn't happen. The "termination" announcement was not made until the train pulled into Newcastle station. No other announcement or explanation was forthcoming.

I have no "brief" on this - I'm not sure what you were trying to get at there. I was just providing a sideways look at an incident that was really annoying and frustrating from a customer's viewpoint.

A bad choice of word. I wasn't getting at you, just meant that you were giving only the outline of each possible action so the further information on what happened was relevant to the wider issue of EC's passenger relations. It wouldn't have taken long for the on-train announcement to have been more informative, so passengers realised why they were being thrown off. When similar things have happened to me (a termination at BNS on a supposed Edinburgh-Oxford journey comes to mind), I appreciated knowing why it was happening.

 

[DiscoStu]

....although it could actually be dangerous to dump passengers on a cold station platform for an extended period of time with nowhere warm to go.

It's Newcastle, not the North Pole.

I think people need to man-up sometimes. Where's the danger in standing on a chilly platform? If it's cold outside, wrap up warm. It's not rocket science.

 

[tsr]

It's Newcastle, not the North Pole.

I think people need to man-up sometimes. Where's the danger in standing on a chilly platform? If it's cold outside, wrap up warm. It's not rocket science.

Most people would wrap up warm, but, even so, if an elderly person or someone with poor health is suddenly made to stand on the platform on a cold winter's night (assuming it was cold), that's not the best idea in the world.

It's Newcastle, and one would reasonably assume Newcastle can be quite cold in winter!

 

[DiscoStu]

Most people would wrap up warm, but, even so, if an elderly person or someone with poor health is suddenly made to stand on the platform on a cold winter's night (assuming it was cold), that's not the best idea in the world.

It's Newcastle, and one would reasonably assume Newcastle can be quite cold in winter!

But like somebody else has already said, there are plenty of places where you can go and get warm, ie Coffee shop, pub over the road, alternative waiting room to the one that was closed.

Standing on a major train station when it's a bit nippy isn't "dangerous" so long as you dress properly, regardless of age. And if they're so ill that a small amount of time spent in the cold is a danger to them, then they probably shouldn't be travelling.

It's a staffed station in a major city. Not the frozen tundra.