East Coast track access

[Failed Unit]

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1993

In summary.

HT's 7th path approved
GC 4th path approved
Grand Union's service approved
Harrogate trains service rejected.
NEEC alterations approved in principle if conflicts can be removed.

A good result IF all the operators can provide the services they want, if Grand Union succeeds or fails will be down to market forces. I hope the NEEC East Coast timetable can be resolved in a rational world we would start planning the timetable from a blank canvas.

Now we can watch with interest as a couple of things instantly spring to mind. there are not enough class 180's for everyone, will NEEC go for the 90's and mk3's instead as per original plan? Or will some services never get off the ground as they don't have suitable rolling stock?

When will NEEC start and will they use it as extra ammo to renegotiate the franchise, growth is already lower than what they predicted and pesky open access operators competing for passengers won't help. I feel that as they made a franchise commitment the timetable they bid for will be made to happen some how!

Enjoy the bedtime reading.

 

[Freightliner]

This is great news! GC extra route! Halleliua...

 

[GNERman]

This is absolutely ace!
GC extra services!
GU first services!
This is immense

 

[eezypeazy]

before you all get too excited...

It's not over yet!

This document says it's an ORR decision that they are "minded to make", ie., this is what they are proposing to decide. Stakeholders have until the middle of February to make representations, and the ORR will make its decision by the end of February...

So expect some loud wailing from NEEC at the very least!

Keep that breath baited...


eezypeazy

 

[xc170]

Glad to see HT has got the extra ecml path they must be one of the most successfull TOCs

Adam

 

[Failed Unit]

The wording of "minded to" is very good I can see this dragging on.

Looking in the document in more detail, Grand Central have pulled a blinder with the timing of thier service. Based on the current timetable it is filling a gap between the 10:29 and 11:35 Southbound (my guess is about at 1050 as it is due to arrive in KX at 1250). This hours gap is crying out to be filled, by anyone including NEEC. I know the proposed regular interval timetable may do the job but that isn't the point. Likewise Northbound at 1918 probably makes it more useful than many of thier existing services, it currenly is not possible to get to Harlepool from London after 1730 by rail so the evening departure will be very welcome.

The Bradford interchange services are a bit more interesting.
Doncaster, Wakefield and Bradford will be well served by NEEC so it will just be a battle of which customers prefer here, I suspect by price NEEC will lose some customers. Pontefract, Brighouse and Halifax will all benefit from direct services which take a lot longer than connecting, however Wrexham and Shorpshire has proved that demand exists for this kind of service.

Hull trains extra service is off peak something that will be welcomed by Retford I guess to cut the gaps.

As I said earlier I expect this to be the start of the new battle not the end of the war. National Express east coast will be battered not only by price but maybe also by quality of service following the recent cutbacks. Interesting times ahead!

 

[Pumbaa]

I note Platinum trains look to have their application refused. Hardly surprised.

But I am surprised re the Grand Union decision, although I am pleased, and I suspect so are they!

 

[tbtc]

This may be good news for National Express, in a perverse way. If they want to quit the East Cost franchise, they can now blame the three open access operators running new/ expanded services, meaning the huge premiums NXEC promised to DaFT are now unrealistic etc etc.

Certainly this is good news for enthusiasts, not sure it's good news for the general public, but I may be in a minority on here...

 

[Techniquest]

Good news indeed for GC and GU, assuming the final decision remains this way.

 

[GNERman]

On GC's website it says they welcome the decision by the ORR
This is great news I think
Platinum Trains had little chance
Harrogate trains had little chance
Come on GU!

 

[Pumbaa]

Harrogate trains had little chance

I wouldn't have thought so - it was a First group venture. I would have imagined that they would have been happy for it to go ahead, certainly happier than letting GU go ahead.

 

[Max]

I wouldn't have thought so - it was a First group venture. I would have imagined that they would have been happy for it to go ahead, certainly happier than letting GU go ahead.

I'm quite surprised too to be honest. After the success of Hull Trains, and with the financial backing of First, I could have seen this as good for Harrogate. I also feel they could have competed well with NXEC on price and on-board services (if their paths get approved). It seems it was potential revenue extraction at York which swung it. Strange considering people argued that GC did exactly the same!

 

[djw1981]

If DfT cannot sort the TOC's out to give NXEc their York / Lincoln paths, then NXEc can complain about the ORR decision because these are franchise commitments and thus failure for NXEC to fulfill them could result in franchise cancellation.

Thus teh decision is provisional until that problem is surmounted.

 

[GNERman]

Oh well NXEC out of the franchise...
uh um sorry yes I can see what you mean

 

[D841]

The wording of "minded to" is very good I can see this dragging on.

If I recall correctly, the last time the ORR used that phrase was when they were considering Grand Central's application for the Sunderland service - which they then did approve, regardless of the moaning by the other TOCs.

I think this one will be a runner.

 

[upyourjunction]

Will the cranks & spotters on here be behind GU as much as they are GC if they are running boring 180's?

 

[Techniquest]

To be honest, I don't know but I do like their proposals.

 

[spoony]

I for one being a native of Sunderland welcome GCs proposal and hopeful approval of another service to London

 

[djw1981]

How about the cl ?? and 442's? or 442's adapted to have pantographs?

 

[devon_metro]

How about the cl ?? and 442's? or 442's adapted to have pantographs?

Or more sensibly, a class 180.

 

[GNERman]

Yeah GC have said they are talking with Angel Trains for stock

 

[djw1981]

Yeah but cl180 stock could be tricky to get hold of, especially if they need more than 1 set on the 'peak'ish journeys. It also cannot (IIRC) be cross diagramed with the Sunderland stock. Common maintenance at Crofton would be an advantage.

Currently Northern have 3 (subleased from NXEC); HT have ?2? with another 3 to come. That leaves 6 more. One IIRC has been raided for spares, taking us to 5. IIRC NXEC have 3 of these (which together with teh Northern ones gives them 6 from next December). Leaving a max 2 units available. And IIRC GC need 5 to run the service and allow for maintenance.

 

[devon_metro]

So you are suggesting 5 coach 100mph capable 442s which would need to have transformers/rectifiers installed(750V DC-25000V AC), not forgetting wiring York - Sunderland, as a sensible option???????????????????????????????????

 

[MCR247]

Yeah but cl180 stock could be tricky to get hold of, especially if they need more than 1 set on the 'peak'ish journeys. It also cannot (IIRC) be cross diagramed with the Sunderland stock. Common maintenance at Crofton would be an advantage.

Currently Northern have 3 (subleased from NXEC); HT have ?2? with another 3 to come. That leaves 6 more. One IIRC has been raided for spares, taking us to 5. IIRC NXEC have 3 of these (which together with teh Northern ones gives them 6 from next December). Leaving a max 2 units available. And IIRC GC need 5 to run the service and allow for maintenance.

I thought NT were subleasing 180s from someone? NXEC or VT spring to mind.
If it is NXEC arent they the 3 and thats it?

 

[222001]

Currently Northern have 3 (subleased from NXEC); HT have ?2? with another 3 to come. That leaves 6 more. One IIRC has been raided for spares, taking us to 5. IIRC NXEC have 3 of these (which together with teh Northern ones gives them 6 from next December). Leaving a max 2 units available. And IIRC GC need 5 to run the service and allow for maintenance.

I would have thought the one raided for spares could be brought back into service before next year.
There are 14. Currently Northern have 3. Hull Trains have 5 - three are in use.
When Northern give their ones up there will be 9 for NXEC and GC/GU to go for.
How many are needed by them both?
Edit: Only 5 are out of use at the moment.

 

[Pumbaa]

I thought NT were subleasing 180s from someone? NXEC or VT spring to mind.
If it is NXEC arent they the 3 and thats it?

Yup - the Northern ones are subleased off the NXEC group that have been ring-fenced for their use.So 5 for HT, then the NXEC lot amount to 4 or 5. So not a lot of spare to go around.

What about the rolling stock order GC placed with the chinese company for their new trains? Could GU not use them first whilst more are built for GC?

 

[222001]

What about the rolling stock order GC placed with the chinese company for their new trains? Could GU not use them first whilst more are built for GC?

As far as I am aware an order was never made?

 

[djw1981]

So you are suggesting 5 coach 100mph capable 442s which would need to have transformers/rectifiers installed(750V DC-25000V AC), not forgetting wiring York - Sunderland, as a sensible option???????????????????????????????????

No, I specifically said they could be used on the Bradfod leg, which IIRC is mostly electrified. My point was that this would not give them an inter-operable fleet. However the 442's if hauled could do both routes. The issue is what loco to us, given the need for speed.

 

[devon_metro]

The ECML paths will be based on 125mph running, the 442s are not cleared to run at such high speeds. With the way NX is going, don't expect any new services with 180s!

 

[tbtc]

Since paths are scarce (given the pinch points at Welwyn, Newark etc) it's a real shame to run five coach trains on services of 200 miles (+), when that path could be used by a longer service.

Shame we can't have services "splitting" at Doncaster with a portion for Hull/ Grimsby/ Sunderland/ Bradford/ Harrogate etc etc.

Looking at how desperate operators are for the only few "spare" trains out there makes me wonder why (next time they have a gap in their order books) someone like Bombardier don't build new units on spec, because there seems to be a market for them (and no prospect of electrification covering all of these lines in the next decade).