East Coast timetabling quirks

[backontrack]

In the latest East Coast timetable (18 May-13 December) I noticed the following services:

Services from Doncaster to Edinburgh departing at:

Mon-Fri: 0615
Sat: 0610
Sun: 0937

These call at:
Mon-Fri: All EC stops except Northallerton and Morpeth
Sat: All EC stops except Morpeth
Sun: All EC stops except Northallerton, Morpeth and Alnmouth

There were also services from Leeds to Aberdeen on Mon-Sat, and to Edinburgh on Sundays, departing at:

Mon-Sat: 0710
Sun: 0830

These call at:
Mon-Sat: All EC stops via York except Northallerton and Alnmouth
Sun: All EC stops (terminates at Edinburgh)

As well as these:

The southbound Bradford Forster Square-London King's Cross service is called the West Riding Limited, but not the northbound. The southbound service is not called the WR on Saturdays (it doesn't operate on Sundays).

Both the WR and the southbound Skipton service call at Shipley, (to pick up only,) but northbound, only the Bradford train calls (set down only). This is the same on both weekdays and Saturdays.

There is also a southbound service on weekdays, the 0600, that starts at Berwick-upon-Tweed before stopping at all EC stops to Darlington, then York, Retford and London.

Can anyone help explain these?

 

[swt_passenger]

There is also a southbound service on weekdays, the 0600, that starts at Berwick-upon-Tweed before stopping at all EC stops to Darlington, then York, Retford and London.

Can anyone help explain these?

Last one is easy, I think. It deals with the calls that the up Flying Scotsman doesn't make, to improve the latter service's journey time from Edinburgh to Newcastle, and then its non-stop run to Kings Cross. The idea is that passengers from Berwick etc can change onto the faster service at Newcastle. The Berwick starter then effectively forms another Newcastle to Kings Cross service that gets overtaken by the Scotsman during a lengthened call at Darlington.

 

[JonathanH]

In the latest East Coast timetable (18 May-13 December) I noticed the following services:

Services from Doncaster to Edinburgh departing at:

Mon-Fri: 0615
Sat: 0610
Sun: 0937

These call at:
Mon-Fri: All EC stops except Northallerton and Morpeth
Sat: All EC stops except Morpeth
Sun: All EC stops except Northallerton, Morpeth and Alnmouth

There were also services from Leeds to Aberdeen on Mon-Sat, and to Edinburgh on Sundays, departing at:

Mon-Sat: 0710
Sun: 0830

These call at:
Mon-Sat: All EC stops via York except Northallerton and Alnmouth
Sun: All EC stops (terminates at Edinburgh)

As well as these:

The southbound Bradford Forster Square-London King's Cross service is called the West Riding Limited, but not the northbound. The southbound service is not called the WR on Saturdays (it doesn't operate on Sundays).

Both the WR and the southbound Skipton service call at Shipley, (to pick up only,) but northbound, only the Bradford train calls (set down only). This is the same on both weekdays and Saturdays.

There is also a southbound service on weekdays, the 0600, that starts at Berwick-upon-Tweed before stopping at all EC stops to Darlington, then York, Retford and London.

Can anyone help explain these?

The trains that start from Doncaster and Leeds do so because they spend the night at Neville Hill Depot in Leeds and would be too early for departures from London. As the Doncaster starter is an electric set, it has to go south from Leeds first and Doncaster is a convenient start point. The Leeds to Aberdeen train is a diesel set and can travel via Garforth.

It is common to have named trains in the morning that don't have an afternoon equivalent. This is because the demand is more concentrated in the morning on some headline trains whereas people travel back when they are ready in the afternoon across a longer period.

 

[backontrack]

The trains that start from Doncaster and Leeds do so because they spend the night at Neville Hill Depot in Leeds and would be too early for departures from London. As the Doncaster starter is an electric set, it has to go south from Leeds first and Doncaster is a convenient start point. The Leeds to Aberdeen train is a diesel set and can travel via Garforth.

And then...the Leeds-Aberdeen can travel to London? I see.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Last one is easy, I think. It deals with the calls that the up Flying Scotsman doesn't make, to improve the latter service's journey time from Edinburgh to Newcastle, and then its non-stop run to Kings Cross. The idea is that passengers from Berwick etc can change onto the faster service at Newcastle. The Berwick starter then effectively forms another Newcastle to Kings Cross service that gets overtaken by the Scotsman during a lengthened call at Darlington.

That doesn't really explain the Retford call, though. It is a rarity; that is the only service calling at Retford without calling at Doncaster, and the only one running non-stop from Retford to London.

Apart from that, though, it does make sense. Poor Dunbar.

 

[JonathanH]

And then...the Leeds-Aberdeen can travel to London? I see.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That doesn't really explain the Retford call, though. It is a rarity; that is the only service calling at Retford without calling at Doncaster, and the only one running non-stop from Retford to London.

Apart from that, though, it does make sense. Poor Dunbar.

Thereby becoming Retford's prime service for peak travel to London - offering a "headline" journey time. The avoidance of a call at Doncaster may be for pathing (If no platform is available or the time it needs to leave York and pass pinch points such as Welwyn are fixed and there isn't time to call at Doncaster and Retford). Alternatively, the loadings may be such that there are only spaces for Retford passengers when you take into account people from further north). One selling point for Retford passengers might be that it isn't 100 per cent loaded on arrival.

 

[30907]

In the case of Shipley, the Skipton platforms are far too short for an EC set and they dont have SDO, hence it's pick up only. IIRC there have to be platform staff too because of the sharp curve.

 

[Senex]

Last one is easy, I think. It deals with the calls that the up Flying Scotsman doesn't make, to improve the latter service's journey time from Edinburgh to Newcastle, and then its non-stop run to Kings Cross. The idea is that passengers from Berwick etc can change onto the faster service at Newcastle. The Berwick starter then effectively forms another Newcastle to Kings Cross service that gets overtaken by the Scotsman during a lengthened call at Darlington.

In terms of morning business services the big loser from the East Coast timetable revision introduction of the Flying Scotsman was York. Before the changes the 0700 starter from Newcastle left York at 0800 and ran non-stop to London, arriving at 0855. It was a very well patronised train. Its successor not only has the Retford stop bit is a massive 11 minutes slower to London, arriving at 1006 - a deceleration of almost 10%.

However, the Retford stop does at least avoid the routine nonsense of the old non-stop 0800, which was the stop at Newark Crossing what seemed to be pretty well every day whilst a service from the Leeds line was making its Newark call just in front.

 

[Welshman]

In terms of morning business services the big loser from the East Coast timetable revision introduction of the Flying Scotsman was York. Before the changes the 0700 starter from Newcastle left York at 0800 and ran non-stop to London, arriving at 0855.

Gosh - that was fast!

 

[D6975]

That doesn't really explain the Retford call, though. It is a rarity; that is the only service calling at Retford without calling at Doncaster, and the only one running non-stop from Retford to London.

Apart from that, though, it does make sense. Poor Dunbar.

Rare indeed.
The 0655 Skipton-KGX used to call at Retford but not Doncaster, but now curiously does it the other way around, calling at Doncaster but not Retford.

The time off Retford (for the Skipton) was roughly the same time as the 0600 ex Berwick is now, so the inhabitants of Retford kept a KGX service, albeit from a different origin.

 

[Senex]

Gosh - that was fast!

Far too fast even for the ECML, I'm afraid! Should be 0955 ... (kicks self for not checking typing properly).

 

[adrock1976]

I seem to remember the Aberdeen and Inverness services only called at Peterborough, York, Newcastle Central, and Edinburgh Waverley, then calling points as present to Aberdeen and Inverness.

It seems to have changed to mainly calling at York, Darlington, Newcastle Central, Berwick-upon-Tweed, and Edinburgh Waverley i.e Darlington instead of Peterborough, with an additional call at Berwick-upon-Tweed.

In peace

Adam

 

[jopsuk]

Yes, I was much miffed when they took away the highland Chieftain's call at Peterborough

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, I was much miffed when they took away the highland Chieftain's call at Peterborough

Whilst I was quite pleased they added one at Darlington

 

[DarloRich]

Whilst I was quite pleased they added one at Darlington

seconded!

That Leeds - Aberdeen has run for years. I used it to get to work in Darlo when i lived in York

 

[backontrack]

Whilst I was quite pleased they added one at Darlington

This opens up the deeper question of why the Highland Chieftain southbound service skips Dalwhinnie, calling at every other station.

I think that they should add a York call to the Flying Scotsman. Of course, it's my home county, so I would.

I seem to remember the Northern Lights running non-stop from KGX to Doncaster, then to York. Weird.

Also, why do so many services call at Berwick, now? Alnmouth gets a lot, too. The Flying Scotsman is the only non-stop train between Edinburgh and Newcastle.

Of course, the real loser here is Dunbar. Isn't even served by the Berwick-London service, to add to its meagre timetable south (fewer trains than Northallerton and Morpeth).

 

[sprinterguy]

That Leeds - Aberdeen has run for years. I used it to get to work in Darlo when i lived in York

Indeed - Used to be quite fond of it ten or more years ago as it was a useful way to get a fairly early start to a day in Edinburgh from Newcastle.

 

[brompton rail]

Indeed - Used to be quite fond of it ten or more years ago as it was a useful way to get a fairly early start to a day in Edinburgh from Newcastle.

Ah! but in BR InterCity days the Aberdeen was a through service from Kings Cross (about 0600) and arriving in Aberdeen about 1400, then a quick turn a round and headed back south to Kings Cross at around 1500. A round trip of around 850 miles - the longest out and back InterCity journey at the time. I believe the 0710 does a similar mileage now, but Leeds - Aberdeen - Kings Cross - Leeds

 

[backontrack]

I seem to remember the Aberdeen and Inverness services only called at Peterborough, York, Newcastle Central, and Edinburgh Waverley, then calling points as present to Aberdeen and Inverness.

It seems to have changed to mainly calling at York, Darlington, Newcastle Central, Berwick-upon-Tweed, and Edinburgh Waverley i.e Darlington instead of Peterborough, with an additional call at Berwick-upon-Tweed.

In peace

Adam

Interestingly, nowadays the only non-stop services from Newcastle to York are operated by First TransPennine Express (Manchester Airport - Edinburgh via York).

 

[ainsworth74]

Interestingly, nowadays the only non-stop services from Newcastle to York are operated by First TransPennine Express (Manchester Airport - Edinburgh via York).

Err...

That's not a regularly timetabled service and only took place during a closure on the WCML. So I wouldn't say TPE provide that service as it's basically a one off.

 

[Deerfold]

It is common to have named trains in the morning that don't have an afternoon equivalent. This is because the demand is more concentrated in the morning on some headline trains whereas people travel back when they are ready in the afternoon across a longer period.

There's also the fact the Northbound trains aren't a direct equivalent. The West Riding is non-stop Wakefield - London. There's no Northbound trains without at least a couple of extra stops - the Bradford service stops at Stevenage, Grantham, Retford and Doncaster.

In the case of Shipley, the Skipton platforms are far too short for an EC set and they dont have SDO, hence it's pick up only. IIRC there have to be platform staff too because of the sharp curve.

A train stopping there also lies across the points at one or both ends whilst it's stopped.

Worth adding for the OP that the Northbound Bradford stops on the opposite platform to any other Leeds - Bradford service as it's long enough. Also the Saturday Skipton - London runs east out of Leeds so avoids Wakefield.

 

[backontrack]

Err...

That's not a regularly timetabled service and only took place during a closure on the WCML. So I wouldn't say TPE provide that service as it's basically a one off.

You wouldn't believe it, but I was reading the old timetable by mistake. Oops.