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East Coast Timetable Dec 24

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The following is the most interesting part of this Network Rail notice of Early Indicator of Likely Congested Infrastructure: East Coast Main Line.
Work undertaken by Network Rail to date indicates that there may be specific geographic locations on the ECML that, whilst not formally congested, are likely to require additional work and consideration for future timetables. These sections currently include:
• Between Huntingdon North Jn and New England North Jn (Peterborough)
• Between Doncaster Marshgate Jn and Leeds Copley Hill West Jn
• Between Northallerton Longlands Jn and Newcastle King Edward Bridge South Jn
• Between Newcastle East Jn and Monktonhall Jn (Edinburgh)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

From the following I assume the Network Rail notice of Early Indicator of Likely Congested Infrastructure: East Coast Main Line was issued as part of the process of resolving the train pathing problems which have held up the delivery of the new East Coast Mainline timetable.
An informal early indicator of likely congestion may be triggered during the process of capacity allocation; for example if discussions around access rights changes have identified a lack of capacity to accommodate rights that may reasonably be expected to soon be sought. Where such an emerging risk of congestion is in the view of Network Rail likely to occur, it is Network Rail’s intention to issue such an early indicator whenever reasonable and practical to do so. Any informal early indicator will be in anticipation of a future formal declaration and as such it can be expected to focus on factors linked to the formal triggers for any possible future statement.
 
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NER1621

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Four-tracking through Northallerton looks extraordinarily expensive - the station is immediately after a road bridge and on an embankment.
I think it would be feasible to insert an additional line round the rear of the down platform, but the up direction is very constrained.
 

xotGD

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I think it would be feasible to insert an additional line round the rear of the down platform, but the up direction is very constrained.
How about adding platforms on the avoiding lines so that services to/from Teesside don't have to stop on the fast lines?
 

Nottingham59

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Also interested to see what reports and documents you are using to imply that the route does merit declaration of congested infrastructure.

OK. I'll take the bait:

The Railways (Access, Management and Licensing of Railway Undertakings) Regulations 2016 defines congested infrastructure as: "an element of railway infrastructure for which demand for infrastructure capacity cannot be fully satisfied during certain periods, even after coordination of the different requests for capacity"

The fact that they've taken two years and still failed to find a timetable for the ECML which satisfies the aspirations of all stakeholders is convincing proof that the demand for infrastructure capacity on the ECML cannot be satisfied during certain periods. So the ECML is by legal definition congested infrastructure.

Looking at whether it should be declared as such:

Section 26-(1) of the Regulations states that "[Where] it is not possible for the infrastructure manager to satisfy requests for infrastructure capacity adequately, the infrastructure manager must declare that element of the railway infrastructure on which such requests cannot be satisfied to be congested."

After years of trying to develop a timetable, they obviously can't adequately satisfy requests for capacity. So section 26-(1) requires them to declare the ECML to be congested. There is no provision in Section 26-(1) to use excuses such as "there's no budget to fix the problem" to avoid this action.

The only permitted reason to delay is if they have not yet coordinated "requests for capacity and consultation with the applicants in accordance with regulation 23(4)." [Section 23-(4) states "In the event of conflict between different requests for infrastructure capacity, the infrastructure manager must attempt, in consultation with the appropriate applicants, and through coordination of the requests, to ensure the best possible matching of all requirements and, in so far as it is reasonable to do so, may propose alternative infrastructure capacity from that requested in order to resolve the conflict." Sections 23-(5, 6, 7) specify what information must be provided to meet section (4), and specifies a time limit measured in days for the resolution of disputes. I can only assume this has been done, but as far as I can see the associated reports and documentation are not public.]

Certainly, the analysis is already there. Posts #240 by @Verulamius and #252 by @swt_passenger refer to previous work that showed that the timetable was not achievable without specific infrastructure interventions, which the DfT refused to fund. So we know the timetable is not achievable. What more analysis do you need?
 

sjm77

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I think it would be feasible to insert an additional line round the rear of the down platform, but the up direction is very constrained.
My understanding is that there used to be 4 lines through Northallerton station but after ratioanisation the platforms were reconstructed on the fast lines. If restored it would make sense for the Northbound platform line to continue down an incline to join the avoiding lines under the main ECML (points would be would be provided to rejoin the fast lines to Darlo at the North end of the platform too obvs)
 

D6130

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My understanding is that there used to be 4 lines through Northallerton station but after ratioanisation the platforms were reconstructed on the fast lines. If restored it would make sense for the Northbound platform line to continue down an incline to join the avoiding lines under the main ECML (points would be would be provided to rejoin the fast lines to Darlo at the North end of the platform too obvs)
As far as I can remember - back to the early 1960s - there were only three through platforms at Northallerton....platforms 1 & 2 on the Up and Down Mains respectively and platform 3 on the former Down Loop (where the car park is now located), which was formerly used by the Wensleydale branch trains. There were - and still are - two other through lines at the lower level on the West side, which were the former Leeds Northern line from Leeds to Newcastle via Ripon, Stockton and Sunderland. AIUI, those lines had a separate station many years ago....but the North Eastern Railway and their successors the LNER introduced successive layout changes - involving a series of flyovers and flyunders - to bring passenger trains on both routes through the present high-level station.
 
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xotGD

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As far as I can remember - back to the early 1960s - there were only three through platforms at Northallerton....platforms 1 & 2 on the Up and Down Mains respectively and platform 3 on the former Down Loop (where the car park is now located), which was formerly used by the Wensleydale branch trains. There were - and still are - two other through lines at the lower level on the West side, which were the former Leeds Northern line from Leeds to Newcastle via Ripon, Stockton and Sunderland. AIUI, those lines had a separate station many years ago....but the North Eastern Railway and their successors the LNER introduced successive layout changes - involving a series of flyovers and flyunders - to bring passenger trains on both routes through the present high-level station.
So my suggestion is essentially to reopen the former Leeds Northern station. Very short sighted of NER/LNER to close it in the first place!
 

43074

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The fact that they've taken two years and still failed to find a timetable for the ECML which satisfies the aspirations of all stakeholders is convincing proof that the demand for infrastructure capacity on the ECML cannot be satisfied during certain periods. So the ECML is by legal definition congested infrastructure.
Ten years at this point - the timetable has its origins in the IEP project but is an iteration of the Virgin Trains East Coast bid timetable. That is the basis of the access rights held by LNER in terms of origins/destinations and trains per hour even if the stopping patterns aren't exactly as VTEC proposed.
 

Bald Rick

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OK. I'll take the bait:

The Railways (Access, Management and Licensing of Railway Undertakings) Regulations 2016 defines congested infrastructure as: "an element of railway infrastructure for which demand for infrastructure capacity cannot be fully satisfied during certain periods, even after coordination of the different requests for capacity"

The fact that they've taken two years and still failed to find a timetable for the ECML which satisfies the aspirations of all stakeholders is convincing proof that the demand for infrastructure capacity on the ECML cannot be satisfied during certain periods. So the ECML is by legal definition congested infrastructure.

Looking at whether it should be declared as such:

Section 26-(1) of the Regulations states that "[Where] it is not possible for the infrastructure manager to satisfy requests for infrastructure capacity adequately, the infrastructure manager must declare that element of the railway infrastructure on which such requests cannot be satisfied to be congested."

After years of trying to develop a timetable, they obviously can't adequately satisfy requests for capacity. So section 26-(1) requires them to declare the ECML to be congested. There is no provision in Section 26-(1) to use excuses such as "there's no budget to fix the problem" to avoid this action.

The only permitted reason to delay is if they have not yet coordinated "requests for capacity and consultation with the applicants in accordance with regulation 23(4)." [Section 23-(4) states "In the event of conflict between different requests for infrastructure capacity, the infrastructure manager must attempt, in consultation with the appropriate applicants, and through coordination of the requests, to ensure the best possible matching of all requirements and, in so far as it is reasonable to do so, may propose alternative infrastructure capacity from that requested in order to resolve the conflict." Sections 23-(5, 6, 7) specify what information must be provided to meet section (4), and specifies a time limit measured in days for the resolution of disputes. I can only assume this has been done, but as far as I can see the associated reports and documentation are not public.]

Certainly, the analysis is already there. Posts #240 by @Verulamius and #252 by @swt_passenger refer to previous work that showed that the timetable was not achievable without specific infrastructure interventions, which the DfT refused to fund. So we know the timetable is not achievable. What more analysis do you need?

Fair enough.

Let’s say that a timetable has been developed that sorts it all, then that would mean there’s no need to declare congested infrastructure? Clearly this timetable wouldn’t be for May 2025, but would be for later. So perhaps best to wait and see what comes out of the timetable development work that has evidently been going on for the last few months.
 

CM Punk

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EMR running a Nottingham-Leicester-Peterborough today, wonder if it's a precursor to sending all the Norwich services around that way to free up paths between Grantham-Peterborough.
 

LowLevel

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EMR running a Nottingham-Leicester-Peterborough today, wonder if it's a precursor to sending all the Norwich services around that way to free up paths between Grantham-Peterborough.
Nah, just due to engineering work.
 

dk1

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EMR running a Nottingham-Leicester-Peterborough today, wonder if it's a precursor to sending all the Norwich services around that way to free up paths between Grantham-Peterborough.

Definitely not. Just down to route blockades.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Nah, just due to engineering work.

Exactly that mate.
 
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According to the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 LNER will operate additional Newcastle-York shuttle services from December 2024 and a formal decision will be made in November 2024 on whether to implement the new timetable in December 2025.
This application by LNER to operate from December 2024 8 weekday and 8 Saturday shuttles between York and Newcastle with a firm regular call at Northallerton, Darlington, Durham and 7 weekday and 7 Saturday shuttles between Newcastle and York with a firm regular call at Durham, Darlington, Northallerton is referred to in the following letter dated 28 June 2024 from Network Rail to the Office of Rail and Road. I do not know why the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 states that LNER will operate these services as I cannot see any approval in this letter from Network Rail and there is no sign of these shuttle services appearing in Real Time Trains.
In particular this letter includes the following statement
Network Rail notes the intention to amend the start date of Schedule 5 (Part B) to Principal Change Date 2024 and the expiry to Principal Change Date 2025. Network Rail cannot currently support this as they fall under the ECML Access Rights umbrella.
which refers to the following document
Links to the documents with details of the application are on the following web page under 37th supplemental agreement
 
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Currently showing in Real Time Trains (see the following) one Doncaster then York to Newcastle, six York to Newcastle and seven Newcastle to York all calling at Northallerton, Darlington and Durham each day Monday to Friday only. Northbound from York 0807 (start Doncaster) 0905 1107 1307 1507 1706 2007 Southbound from Newcastle 0743 0943 1149 1345 1543 1743 1844
 

Gwr12345

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Those shuttles are surely going to be dead? What purpose are they for?
Serving Northallerton as TPE is due to suspend stops on the route from Newcastle to Liverpool. Its to make sure Northallerton has an hourly service to Newcastle and Darlington etc
 

YorkshireBear

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Serving Northallerton as TPE is due to suspend stops on the route from Newcastle to Liverpool. Its to make sure Northallerton has an hourly service to Newcastle and Darlington etc
Ah hadn't spotted that TPE were getting rid of those calls. Thanks.
 

A S Leib

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It's also going to be nice to have what should hopefully be quieter services from York to Newcastle (in the opposite direction Newcastle's already the starting point for TPE services so there's a better chance of getting a seat).
 

JRT

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Departure from Newcastle to Northallerton
Northallerton to Newcastle
 

Donny Dave

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The thing I find puzzling about the York to Newcastle shuttles, is that they don't fit in very well with the London to York all station services. These arrive at York about 20-25 minutes after the service to Northallerton and Newcastle leave.
 

DanNCL

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Safe assumption that these shuttles will be 80xs and not Mark 4s, as such, where are the additional units for this coming from? As even without these shuttles they can’t manage to provide at least a 9 car set on every Kings X-Leeds service on a weekday, or on every Kings X-Newcastle service on a Sunday.
Can we expect workings that are currently 10-car sets to be shortened to 5-car to provide the units for these shuttles?
 

A S Leib

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The thing I find puzzling about the York to Newcastle shuttles, is that they don't fit in very well with the London to York all station services. These arrive at York about 20-25 minutes after the service to Northallerton and Newcastle leave.
If you're going from Stevenage to Newcastle / Edinburgh, it's a 20 minute change at Peterborough or 15 minutes at Wakefield Westgate northbound, and Wakefield goes for Grantham as well. Peterborough, Newark and Doncaster have hourly Edinburgh services already, and Retford and Northallerton (and Stevenage, Grantham and Newark) aren't massive. It would be nice for them to be better-timed, but it's understandable for cross-York flows between smaller places not to be priorities.

I'm not sure if this is the case, but have these services taken over what used to be some of the TPE Newcastle – Manchester Airport paths?
 

JonathanH

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The thing I find puzzling about the York to Newcastle shuttles, is that they don't fit in very well with the London to York all station services. These arrive at York about 20-25 minutes after the service to Northallerton and Newcastle leave.
They need to fit in the gap between the other services. The nature of the London to York stopping service is that it arrives in York just ahead of the slower of the two fast services from London. The faster service from London then runs only twenty minutes behind that service north of York, so logically the York to Newcastle train fits after the fast, and therefore, in your view ahead of the arrival of the slow from London.

On what is essentially a two track railway, you can't easily fit in a stopper all the way from London to Newcastle and a fast. That is why the Liverpool to Edinburgh service didn't work. It became a rolling road block to the faster services.
 

DanNCL

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I'm not sure if this is the case, but have these services taken over what used to be some of the TPE Newcastle – Manchester Airport paths?
Certainly Southbound they have, minus the Chester-le-Street calls that they had when they were with TPE.
 

43074

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They need to fit in the gap between the other services. The nature of the London to York stopping service is that it arrives in York just ahead of the slower of the two fast services from London. The faster service from London then runs only twenty minutes behind that service north of York, so logically the York to Newcastle train fits after the fast, and therefore, in your view ahead of the arrival of the slow from London.
The York to Newcastle shuttles just use the former Manchester Airport to Newcastle paths north of York, they haven't been planned in relation to the London services.
On what is essentially a two track railway, you can't easily fit in a stopper all the way from London to Newcastle and a fast. That is why the Liverpool to Edinburgh service didn't work. It became a rolling road block to the faster services.
The Liverpool to Newcastle service essentially uses the same path as the former Edinburgh services did, and north of Newcastle they called at Morpeth only so were no slower than any other service on that section.

Whether they needed to run to Edinburgh was questionable in the first place, but Covid happened just after they were introduced and TPE found themselves with insufficient drivers soon after so they never returned after the pandemic.
 

A S Leib

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Whether they needed to run to Edinburgh was questionable in the first place, but Covid happened just after they were introduced and TPE found themselves with insufficient drivers soon after so they never returned after the pandemic.
I think with that timetable there was effectively nothing providing a semi-fast service between Newcastle and Edinburgh; the current TPE service is better for Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick and Dunbar. From memory, Morpeth had Northern and TPE, Alnmouth and Berwick had some LNER and CrossCountry services and Dunbar had some CrossCountry and ScotRail services, with very few services calling at multiple stations between Newcastle and Edinburgh. It is probably worth pointing out that none of the flows between the intermediate stations are above 10 passengers per day, but it's still good that the service exists.

Could Liverpool – Carlisle services have been increased instead if Newcastle – Edinburgh TPEs hadn't gone hourly, or would three trains per day (plus one for Oxenholme) have been the limit without Morpeth?
 

cactustwirly

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Departure from Newcastle to Northallerton
Northallerton to Newcastle

A very poor timetable for Northallerton, with huge gaps in the service

Why can't they give a consistent service on the London to Edinburgh train?
 

800001

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A very poor timetable for Northallerton, with huge gaps in the service

Why can't they give a consistent service on the London to Edinburgh train?
Or why don’t they just stop the TPE trains there that now no longer will do so?
 
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