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East Coast Timetable Dec 24

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BrianW

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You have lost me there, clearly you knew I was talking about changes in the way timetables are built.
I have no difficulty recognising the substantial contribution you make (indeed 10x the number of my contributions!). I was trying to suggest, poorly as it seems, that a lot can and will change in the next 10-15 years, though we may not know what or when or how much. For instance passengers could travel more or less or less often or further ; freight double or halve, etc. Coal, steel, mail, TPOs, motorail all have come and gone in no time. I suggest, with some temerity, that the 'rail industry' is slow, even resistant to change. Much tech is agile and mobile, 'go-getting', innovative. Rail gives the appearance of being so 20th, even 19th Century. Much of the complexity of interconnecting services could disappear with a more 'tube' like arrangement where passengers make the interchanges and driver-less trains broadly shuttling from A to B and back. I don't wish to diminish the planning role but I hope you may see the threat (opportunity?) of an all-encompassing algorithm 'taking over'. Myself, I like planning and building, they are creative and rewarding, and not unchangeable or unchallengeable processes.
 
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According to the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 LNER will operate additional Newcastle-York shuttle services from December 2024 and a formal decision will be made in November 2024 on whether to implement the new timetable in December 2025.
LNER will operate additional Newcastle – York “shuttle” services from December 2024 to ensure connectivity is maintained, up to the point that the planned timetable is introduced.
A Task Force has been established to consider when or if the originally planned new timetable can be introduced. This is comprised of senior rail industry figures and includes Transport for the North and Transport Scotland in addition to the Department for Transport. TfN member authorities served by the ECML are kept briefed on the work of the Task Force, and their views sought ahead of Task Force meetings.
A formal decision on whether to implement the timetable in December 2025 will need to be made in November 2024.
 

800Travel

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According to the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 LNER will operate additional Newcastle-York shuttle services from December 2024 and a formal decision will be made in November 2024 on whether to implement the new timetable in December 2025.
Are they express (other than Northallerton) or all stoppers? And anyone know the frequency please? (I.e. 1tph, 1tp2h etc.)
 

800001

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Are they express (other than Northallerton) or all stoppers? And anyone know the frequency please? (I.e. 1tph, 1tp2h etc.)
Every 2 hours I believe. (Odd hours off York from what I remember).

York - Northallerton - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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According to the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 LNER will operate additional Newcastle-York shuttle services from December 2024 and a formal decision will be made in November 2024 on whether to implement the new timetable in December 2025.
Given what the Haines piece of work reported in 2021 on allocation of capacity on ECML and changed political priorities I would say its in the balance
 

Peter A

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Every 2 hours I believe. (Odd hours off York from what I remember).

York - Northallerton - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle.
Perhaps taking the path that was formerly occupied by TPE, which hasn't returned in favour of an hourly service from Manchester to Scarborough
 
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Perhaps taking the path that was formerly occupied by TPE, which hasn't returned in favour of an hourly service from Manchester to Scarborough
Point 4.6 of the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 also mentions infrastructure enhancements to create an additional hourly path between York and Newcastle to enable the TPE service between Manchester and Newcastle to return to 2 trains per hour
Specific issues identified to the Task Force that are of interest to Transport for the North and its member authorities include ...
confirmation that commitments made by the previous government on infrastructure enhancements to allow Newcastle – Manchester to return to 2 trains per hour will be honoured
 

Class 170101

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Point 4.6 of the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 also mentions infrastructure enhancements to create an additional hourly path between York and Newcastle to enable the TPE service between Manchester and Newcastle to return to 2 trains per hour
Do we know what these enhancements are?
 

sjm77

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Could they combine it with the 1tp2h KGX to York that alternates with the 1tp2h service to Lincoln?
Could be tricky as the Edinburgh services would need to overtake during the York stop. Platform availability could be a problem when blocking a through platform for 10 minutes or more. York probably needs the second North facing bay restored to keep the Harrogate services away from P10/11 to help. Also a 5 car Azuma would probably surfice for the shuttle service.
Point 4.6 of the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 also mentions infrastructure enhancements to create an additional hourly path between York and Newcastle to enable the TPE service between Manchester and Newcastle to return to 2 trains per hour
Do they specify how this should be provided? A 5th fast train per hour across the pennines (as we had pre-covid)? Reducing Scarborough to a shuttle permently? Or keeping the Hull service as a stopper for part of it's journey? Interested to know!
 

Paul Duck

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Still waiting to see these 'shuttles' appear in real time trains or any other website/internal system.
What I can't get my head around is where LNER have 2 sets lying about to run these shuttles and surely these shuttles are not what LNER are here for?
How did they get signed off by DFT as they are surely not cost effective! Its basically for Northallerton passengers. I have been sent some pencilled in timings from TPE a couple of months ago. If there is a path for LNER to run thses shuttles then why doesn't TPE run them.
For Northallerton its a back door fare rise as you won't be buying a cheaper TPE only return to Durham or Newcastle anymore and will need a single each way or a ANY OPERATOR season ticket.
Not great for anybody at Northallerton this timetable change.
 

Verulamius

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Like when TPE took over the Scottish services which are an incredibly poor fit in their operation, it'll be about who's got the staff and stock to do it.
Could the York to Newcastle become an extension of those Newcastle to Edinburgh stoppers?
 

A S Leib

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Could the York to Newcastle become an extension of those Newcastle to Edinburgh stoppers?
Not if "odd hours off of York" (#365) is correct, as that misses the 07:08, 09:22 and 21:01 NCL – EDB services. In the short term, that would also be combining a TPE service with an LNER one (or two operator of last resort services, but I'd guess it still complicates things).
 

Bald Rick

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How did they get signed off by DFT as they are surely not cost effective! Its basically for Northallerton passengers. I have been sent some pencilled in timings from TPE a couple of months ago. If there is a path for LNER to run thses shuttles then why doesn't TPE run them.

TPE wont have the spare stock or crew.

LNER will.
 
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Point 4.6 of the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 also mentions infrastructure enhancements to create an additional hourly path between York and Newcastle to enable the TPE service between Manchester and Newcastle to return to 2 trains per hour
Do they specify how this should be provided? A 5th fast train per hour across the pennines (as we had pre-covid)? Reducing Scarborough to a shuttle permently? Or keeping the Hull service as a stopper for part of it's journey? Interested to know!
In the December 2019 timetable at the following link TPE operated an hourly service between Manchester Airport and Newcastle as well as the hourly service between Liverpool Lime Street and Newcastle. As they state that they want the additional hourly path between York and Newcastle to enable the TPE service between Manchester and Newcastle to return to 2 trains per hour I assume the plan is to restore this hourly service between Manchester Airport and Newcastle.
 

800Travel

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Still waiting to see these 'shuttles' appear in real time trains or any other website/internal system.
What I can't get my head around is where LNER have 2 sets lying about to run these shuttles and surely these shuttles are not what LNER are here for?
How did they get signed off by DFT as they are surely not cost effective! Its basically for Northallerton passengers. I have been sent some pencilled in timings from TPE a couple of months ago. If there is a path for LNER to run thses shuttles then why doesn't TPE run them.
For Northallerton its a back door fare rise as you won't be buying a cheaper TPE only return to Durham or Newcastle anymore and will need a single each way or a ANY OPERATOR season ticket.
Not great for anybody at Northallerton this timetable change.
Are you able to share the times please? Would be good to see, but no worries if not.
 

Paul Duck

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Are you able to share the times please? Would be good to see, but no worries if not.
I’ll check the original e mail to see what it said about sharing the info :)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Are you able to share the times please? Would be good to see, but no worries if not.
Alas not to be shared sorry. All I would say is that not every TPE stopping service would be replaced by LNER.
 
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800Travel

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I’ll check the original e mail to see what it said about sharing the info :)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Alas not to be shared sorry. All I would say is that not every TPE stopping service would be replaced by LNER.
No worries - thanks for checking anyway :)
 

jayah

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Maybe not, but nothing is going to change in the next 10-15 years on this front. If anything, more people will get taken on.
Perhaps it should be done on the basis there is one timetable, lasting one hour, not different paths for 20hrs a day, 3 days a week?

There is either an hourly freight path or there isn't. You can't have a situation where freight access rights are immutable or cost the taxpayer £bn in additional infrastructure to protect.

Connectivity between London and Edinburgh is of national, strategic importance.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Perhaps it should be done on the basis there is one timetable, lasting one hour, not different paths for 20hrs a day, 3 days a week?

There is either an hourly freight path or there isn't. You can't have a situation where freight access rights are immutable or cost the taxpayer £bn in additional infrastructure to protect.

Connectivity between London and Edinburgh is of national, strategic importance.
Connectivity between all major cities is of national importance not just London to Edinburgh. LNER should sub lease a few more 5 cars to LUMO who could then strengthen all their services. Likewise XC should be allowed all the AWC 221 so all services are 8 cars min then there would be additional capcity without screwing over any other operator.
 

waverley47

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Connectivity between all major cities is of national importance not just London to Edinburgh. LNER should sub lease a few more 5 cars to LUMO who could then strengthen all their services. Likewise XC should be allowed all the AWC 221 so all services are 8 cars min then there would be additional capcity without screwing over any other operator.

The government should sub-lease assets to a private company, so that company can make a profit by offering a service in which in direct competition to one offered but the government?

Seems a bit too neo-liberal to me.
 

xotGD

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Better to just say that all intercity services in and out of King's Cross should be a minimum of 8 carriages. Occupying paths with 5-car sets is just a waste.
 

A S Leib

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Better to just say that all intercity services in and out of King's Cross should be a minimum of 8 carriages. Occupying paths with 5-car sets is just a waste.
Are Lincoln services generally 5, 9 or 10 carriages, and do those sets normally stick to Lincoln or work on other LNER routes? Can Lincoln Central take 9-10 carriage trains?
 

TheBigD

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Are Lincoln services generally 5, 9 or 10 carriages, and do those sets normally stick to Lincoln or work on other LNER routes? Can Lincoln Central take 9-10 carriage trains?
Lincoln's are booked a 5 car except the 0730 ex Lincoln on a Saturday, and the 1906 ex Kings Cross on a Sunday, which are both booked a 9 car.
 

DanNCL

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If LNER really have spare stock then why are there multiple booked 5 car workings to Leeds during the course of the day, including one in the evening peak? Simply don’t see where this extra stock is coming from unless they’re either going to run even more 5 car formations throughout the day or they’re going to use the Mark 4 sets more intensively.
 

jayah

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Connectivity between all major cities is of national importance not just London to Edinburgh. LNER should sub lease a few more 5 cars to LUMO who could then strengthen all their services. Likewise XC should be allowed all the AWC 221 so all services are 8 cars min then there would be additional capcity without screwing over any other operator.
While I would agree undersized trains are a scourge, it is the planning process here that is dysfunctional.

It ought to be perfectly possible to adequately serve Northallerton, Durham, Berwick etc.. given 2tph to Edinburgh from LNER, 1tph to Edinburgh from XC and 1tph from TPE as far as Newcastle and another TPE service north of Newcastle that is best described as random.

This needs to be done with one simple hourly plan that either accommodates freight or doesn't. Instead, for example the Northbound XC path is running in 6 different slots during the day, multiplying the planning work by about 16 times.

After 5 years of this they’re actually contemplating running even more services to plug gaps of their own making. And to rub it in, most of the existing freight paths are not even used.
 
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