East Coast "Smokescreen"

[Butts]

On my journey this evening from Alnmouth to Falkirk I got talking to one of the "trolley dolleys" in my First Class carriage.

She asked why I was changing at Haymarket to get a connection to Falkirk rather than Waverley.

I explained to her that it was so I could have a cigarette at Haymarket whilst awaiting my connection rather than having to leave the station at Waverley.

She exclaimed "We were told you can't smoke on any station platforms !!!" I explained that this was not the case (at least on some stations in Scotland).

This is not the first time this has happened ,in Darlington I had an argument with an East Coast CSA on the very same subject. He was adamant you could not smoke on any platform in the UK.

Imagine this scenario an East Coast Service is delayed at Stirling Station for a period of at least ten minutes - a customer asks an EC staff member if they can alight from the train and have a cigarette on the uncovered platform - the answer may well reflect the beliefs held by EC staff above notwithstanding any operational issues.

Can someone procure the definitive answer how this anomaly has arisen - the stations where smoking is permitted on uncovered areas of station platforms all seem to be run by Scotrail.

 

[junglejames]

If I remember rightly, isnt their a difference between England and Scotland? One of them there is no smoking at all. The other, only on uncovered areas of the platform. Just not sure which one is which

 

[Butts]

If I remember rightly, isnt their a difference between England and Scotland? One of them there is no smoking at all. The other, only on uncovered areas of the platform. Just not sure which one is which

Scotland - some stations ok as described but not all of them leading to confusion

 

[KingBBoogaloo]

Under the Railway Byelaws, which apply to both England and Scotland: -

3. Smoking
No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.

So if there is a notice on Haymarket Station say you can not smoke on that station, then the 'Trolly Dolly' was right.

As for Darlington, there are such notices, and even anouncments telling you you can not smoke anywhere on the station.

 

[Bridge189]

On my journey this evening from Alnmouth to Falkirk I got talking to one of the "trolley dolleys" in my First Class carriage.

She asked why I was changing at Haymarket to get a connection to Falkirk rather than Waverley.

I explained to her that it was so I could have a cigarette at Haymarket whilst awaiting my connection rather than having to leave the station at Waverley.

She exclaimed "We were told you can't smoke on any station platforms !!!" I explained that this was not the case (at least on some stations in Scotland).

This is not the first time this has happened ,in Darlington I had an argument with an East Coast CSA on the very same subject. He was adamant you could not smoke on any platform in the UK.

Imagine this scenario an East Coast Service is delayed at Stirling Station for a period of at least ten minutes - a customer asks an EC staff member if they can alight from the train and have a cigarette on the uncovered platform - the
answer may well reflect the beliefs held by EC staff above notwithstanding any operational issues.

Can someone procure the definitive answer how this anomaly has arisen -
the stations where smoking is permitted on uncovered areas of station platforms all seem to be run by Scotrail.

I know for sure on EC managed stations (Darlington included) there is no smoking at all. I highly doubt FSR allow it on platforms either and it's pretty common knowledge now that you can't.

 

[bnm]

I know for sure on EC managed stations (Darlington included) there is no smoking at all. I highly doubt FSR allow it on platforms either and it's pretty common knowledge now that you can't.

I had no problem having a smoke on the uncovered part of Crianlarich a couple of years back. We were awaiting the inbound from Oban to attach to our train from Fort Bill.

The guard actually made a PA announcement just as we pulled in to Crianlarich, letting folk know that we had about 10 minutes to wait and if anyone wanted to hop off for a smoke they were more than welcome to do so. He finished his PA by asking for a roll-up, saying he'd left his "smoking accoutrements" (those were his actually words!) in the mess room at Fort Bill!

I obliged.

 

[yorkie]

I highly doubt FSR allow it on platforms either and it's pretty common knowledge now that you can't.

Are you sure? If that's the case why do I see Scotrail staff smoking on platforms, let alone passengers.

It should be banned, of course, but it doesn't appear to be banned on Scotrail.

 

[eastdyke]

Are you sure? If that's the case why do I see Scotrail staff smoking on platforms, let alone passengers.

It should be banned, of course, but it doesn't appear to be banned on Scotrail.

Yes you are correct Yorkie, smoking does seem to still be allowed on all the uncovered parts of stations in Scotland (both from experiences of friends and observation).

The rules do however seem to be less liberal in the matter of drinking after 9pm or is that just on trains?

And do the border police embark at Carlisle and Berwick? (or is that only after independence?).

 

[merlodlliw]

One station in Wales that allows smoking is the Stena owned and ATW managed Fishguard Harbour station.
Which brings me to another question is smoking allowed on ships ,such as Irish Ferry etc

Bob

 

[EM2]

Which brings me to another question is smoking allowed on ships ,such as Irish Ferry etc

Bob

Only on outside decks, and even then only in designated areas.

 

[wibble]

Found this on the ScotRail website:

Can you smoke on ScotRail trains?
All ScotRail trains are non-smoking. Smoking is not permitted in enclosed areas at ScotRail stations (ie areas with at least three walls and a roof).

 

[michael769]

Yes you are correct Yorkie, smoking does seem to still be allowed on all the uncovered parts of stations in Scotland (both from experiences of friends and observation).

This is only true of Scotrail managed stations.

The Network Rail managed stations have notices prohibiting smoking anywhere in the premises. Which is why the OP did not want to change at Waverley.

 

[Butts]

Found this on the ScotRail website:

Can you smoke on ScotRail trains?
All ScotRail trains are non-smoking. Smoking is not permitted in enclosed areas at ScotRail stations (ie areas with at least three walls and a roof).

Thus inferring that outwith these areas (open platforms) it is permitted, indeed there is a notice to this effect at Stirling Station.

Once again I ask why Scotrail has deviated from the practice prevalent on the open platform areas of other station operators ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you sure? If that's the case why do I see Scotrail staff smoking on platforms, let alone passengers.

It should be banned, of course, but it doesn't appear to be banned on Scotrail.

Why should it "be banned of course" are you suggesting on a Station like Alnmouth there is not a quiet corner where someone can have a smoke without it affecting anyone else

 

[KingBBoogaloo]

Alnmouth station is a no smoking station, it has numerous signs saying its is an offence to smoke any where on the station and quote bye-law 3.

A quiet corner where you think you can have a smoke without it affecting anyone else doesn't make it OK, it is still an offence.

 

[Wath Yard]

You can still smoke on open platforms at the majority of Scottish stations. I don't know if it's still there but the entrance at Perth station used to have a map showing which parts of the station you could smoke on.

Scotland didn't deviate from England with its smoking on stations policy, England deviated from Scotland. Scotland brought in the no smoking in public places law in first.

As far as I understand it, in Scotland and England it is against the law to smoke in covered parts of stations. It is not against the law to smoke on open platforms in either, however it is against railway byelaws in England. I was told the open platform ban was simply because Network Rail (and possibly ATOC?) decided it would be easier for them if they implemented a complete ban. Presumably ScotRail decided their version of the ban was working fine and it would havecomplicated matters if they amended it when England banned it.

 

[Butts]

Alnmouth station is a no smoking station, it has numerous signs saying its is an offence to smoke any where on the station and quote bye-law 3.

A quiet corner where you think you can have a smoke without it affecting anyone else doesn't make it OK, it is still an offence.

So is driving over 30 or 40 which I'm sure you never do !!!!

If only they had some staff on the station to enforce the byelaws - I'm sure the other passenger 300 yards away would have complained vociferously
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You can still smoke on open platforms at the majority of Scottish stations. I don't know if it's still there but the entrance at Perth station used to have a map showing which parts of the station you could smoke on.

Scotland didn't deviate from England with its smoking on stations policy, England deviated from Scotland. Scotland brought in the no smoking in public places law in first.

As far as I understand it, in Scotland and England it is against the law to smoke in covered parts of stations. It is not against the law to smoke on open platforms in either, however it is against railway byelaws in England. I was told the open platform ban was simply because Network Rail (and possibly ATOC?) decided it would be easier for them if they implemented a complete ban. Presumably ScotRail decided their version of the ban was working fine and it would havecomplicated matters if they amended it when England banned it.

So Network Rail is the real villain of the piece - I am suprised as a lot of Rail Staff smoke that the Unions didn't kick up a fuss about the ban on open platforms in England and Wales.

I suspect the driving force behind the complete ban was related to cleaning costs.

 

[benk1342]

I suspect the driving force behind the complete ban was related to cleaning costs.

If so, then that is consistent with my feeling that public smoking is far less offensive when people do not throw their butts on the ground.

 

[Butts]

If so, then that is consistent with my feeling that public smoking is far less offensive when people do not throw their butts on the ground.

Unfortunately this is often due to the lack of provision of suitable receptacles to use. If I am ever faced with this situation I dispose of the end down a drain.

 

[DarloRich]

just ban smoking entirely. everywhere. Punish it by death!

In Scotland:

You can smoke nowhere upon on a Network Rail managed station
You can smoke uopn a TOC managed station only in non enclosed sections (except underground ones)

 

[Butts]

just ban smoking entirely. everywhere. Punish it by death!

In Scotland:

You can smoke nowhere upon on a Network Rail managed station
You can smoke uopn a TOC managed station only in non enclosed sections (except underground ones)

Very liberal approach to a legal pursuit

Did the situation you describe commence from the introduction of the ban in Scotland in March 2006 ie did Network Rail or would it still have been Railtrack introduce the ban immediately with regard to open areas ? ie before it started in 2007 in England.

Also is Dunbar an East Coast Managed station - that could be interesting !!!

 

[DarloRich]

@Butts -TBH I don’t know! I do know that smoking in underground stations has been verboten for many years!

I forgot to mention after death the deceased’s estate will be forfeit in order to make up losses to the NHS!

 

[Butts]

@Butts -TBH I don’t know! I do know that smoking in underground stations has been verboten for many years!

I forgot to mention after death the deceased’s estate will be forfeit in order to make up losses to the NHS!

I can remember when you could smoke on the Underground itself never mind the stations - that went west after Kings Cross Fire.

The NHS will actually owe the deceased wonga.....

revenue raised £11 Billion

nhs smoking related expenditure 5 - 6 billion

 

[DarloRich]

Well just see at as subsidising the other ill people. It is your good deed! I never smoke or drink you understand

I can recall smoking on planes which was unpleasant! I don’t like smoking but can’t see the harm in you having a fag at the end of the platform, especially if it is chucking it down!

I can see the point in stopping you having a fag on the train where we are all cooped up together for hours. More so for the staff who have to work in a potentially dangerous environment but in the open is a different matter

 

[Stats]

Did Scotrail change their policy then?

This ATOC document (bottom of page 4) suggests that Scotrail went further than the Scottish legislation and banned smoking on all platforms, even where uncovered. As the Scottish public had accepted this and there had been no problems enforcing it ATOC members extended this to all English and Welsh stations.

 

[ex-railwayman]

One station in Wales that allows smoking is the Stena owned and ATW managed Fishguard Harbour station.
Which brings me to another question is smoking allowed on ships ,such as Irish Ferry etc

Bob

According to the Stena Line website -

Can I smoke onboard?

Smoking is not permitted on Irish Sea routes. Smoking is permitted on other routes in designated areas only.


On the Brittany Ferries website -


Can I smoke onboard?

All enclosed areas of our ships have been non smoking since 1st March 2007.

Passengers may still smoke on outdoor decks of our fleet, except on the Normandie Express which is completely non-smoking.


DFDS website for Dover-Dunkirk

13. Can I smoke onboard?

In the interests of passenger comfort, all public areas on the vessels are non-smoking however it is possible to smoke on the outside decks.


LD Lines website Portsmouth - Le Havre / Newhaven - Dieppe

9. Is Smoking allowed onboard?

Smoking is not permitted in public areas, shops, restaurants, cabins and inside the ships in general. Weather permitting, passengers are allowed to smoke on the outside decks. Smoking may also be prohibited in certain outside deck areas. Please pay attention to onboard signage.



So, weather permitting, you can have a smoke in the pouring rain outside on deck, however, I doubt any of the ship's crew would bother getting soaking wet to tell you off otherwise.....

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

nhs smoking related expenditure 5 - 6 billion

Which was a 7 year old estimate.

 

[34D]

I don’t like smoking but can’t see the harm in you having a fag at the end of the platform, especially if it is chucking it down!

My sentiments exactly.

On Isle of Man steam packet, one of their boats (manannan) doesn't allow external smoking but the other (Ben my Chree) does allow external smoking.

 

[tony_mac]

Did Scotrail change their policy then?

This ATOC document (bottom of page 4) suggests that Scotrail went further than the Scottish legislation and banned smoking on all platforms, even where uncovered. As the Scottish public had accepted this and there had been no problems enforcing it ATOC members extended this to all English and Welsh stations.

It says 'most' stations not 'all'.
This had been brought up a number of times, but Merseyrail did not ban smoking on platforms either.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Also is Dunbar an East Coast Managed station - that could be interesting !!!

There are only four stations in Scotland not operated by ScotRail - Glasgow Central and Edinburgh (NR), Prestwick Airport (managed by the airport) and Dunbar (EC). I would assume that smoking is prohibited on Dunbar in the same way it is at GLC and EDB. I am unsure what the position is at PRA.

 

[sparks2000]

Alnmouth station is a no smoking station, it has numerous signs saying its is an offence to smoke any where on the station and quote bye-law 3.

A quiet corner where you think you can have a smoke without it affecting anyone else doesn't make it OK, it is still an offence.

A bye-law doesn't make it not OK - it makes it an offence. I assume the bye-law was introduced for public safety after the Kings Cross fire. A law was introduced about smoking in workplaces to protect employees. So, smoking in a safe place that does not endanger the innocent is OK in my moral code. I'm a non smoker and don't want the stations I share to be smoked out but I do think the smoking tax payer also has some right to his own liberty. Even so, if its an offence then the smoker might want to consider if the penalty is worth the crime.