East Coast Mainline Stupidity

[yorksrob]

I arrived at Wakefield Westgate this morning expecting to get a train through to Leeds as normal, being that this is supposedly a mainline service.

Imagine my surprise when I turn up only to find a wait of over half an hour for the next train to Leeds.

Imagine my even greater surprise when, about quarter of an hour into my wait, I see an InterCity 225 from Kings Cross crawling through on the centre road, clearly from London carrying passengers, yet EC in it's wisdom seems intent on driving it through non-stop for no good reason.

What clown has designed this timetable ? Is it Souter's doing?

 

[Jonfun]

Good. Intercity trains shouldn't be used to plug gaps in local train services. It's why FGW mainline services are often overcrowded between Paddington and Reading, XC services between Birmingham and Wolverhampton/Coventry, etc etc.

Most won't change though, because the TOCs prefer the extra revenue they get by stopping over the (dis)comfort of their long distance passengers.

 

[NeilWatson]

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.c...f/timetables/saturdays-northbound-2015-16.pdf

Appears to be one train per hour timetabled for London to Leeds, all stopping at Wakefield Westgate.

No disruption mentioned on VTEC website

 

[yorksrob]

Good. Intercity trains shouldn't be used to plug gaps in local train services. It's why FGW mainline services are often overcrowded between Paddington and Reading, XC services between Birmingham and Wolverhampton/Coventry, etc etc.

Most won't change though, because the TOCs prefer the extra revenue they get by stopping over the (dis)comfort of their long distance passengers.

Nonsense, because Wakefield is an InterCity destination in it's own right.
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https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.c...f/timetables/saturdays-northbound-2015-16.pdf

Appears to be one train per hour timetabled for London to Leeds, all stopping at Wakefield Westgate.

No disruption mentioned on VTEC website

That's strange. I don't ever recall seeing trains from Kings Cross sailing through on the centre road before.

We have half hourly on week days and I'm sure none of those miss out the stop.

 

[30907]

The first Saturday train from KGX to LDS has been around 0705 for years (at least since 2009 but I suspect since electrification).

The additional service is the 0615 diverted to Leeds because of the advertised engineering work. No reason why it should call at Wakefield.

 

[yorksrob]

The first Saturday train from KGX to LDS has been around 0705 for years (at least since 2009 but I suspect since electrification).

The additional service is the 0615 diverted to Leeds because of the advertised engineering work. No reason why it should call at Wakefield.

Ah, that explains it.

Still, the rant did me good.

 

[johntea]

What I always find amusing about Wakefield is on a Sunday evening towards the end of the night you literally are spoilt for choice in terms of Leeds services as several long distance services all make their last journey back to Leeds

 

[yorksrob]

What I always find amusing about Wakefield is on a Sunday evening towards the end of the night you literally are spoilt for choice in terms of Leeds services as several long distance services all make their last journey back to Leeds

Yes, I was quite fond of catching these. Unfortunately Stagecoach seem to have withdrawn a lot of the cheap fares that helped to make the route attractive

 

[AndrewE]

Good. Intercity trains shouldn't be used to plug gaps in local train services.

I couldn't agree more... When there are 4 transpennine trains an hour on the core of the route between Piccadilly and Leeds, plus another that comes from Victoria (on top of the locals) I can't understand why they all call at Huddersfield. One or two per hour could be promoted to "Inter-city".

I have been left behind at Leeds coming home in the evening (physically unable to board) when most of the westbound trains I have travelled on in the afternoon/early evening have emptied out at Huddersfield. Not a very good offering to long-distance travellers.

A (Grabs tin helmet and ducks for cover)

 

[yorkie]

Good. Intercity trains shouldn't be used to plug gaps in local train services....

Would VTEC/XC would support a proposal for a more intensive local service between Leeds and West/South Yorkshire destinations and for all the VTEC/XC trains to run non-stop through stations like Wakefield (but, of course, crawling behind the stoppers)?

 

[Crossover]

I recall a few months ago a few going through non-stop - it was a day of diversions York to Doncaster as the through route was closed for engineering

I couldn't agree more... When there are 4 transpennine trains an hour on the core of the route between Piccadilly and Leeds, plus another that comes from Victoria (on top of the locals) I can't understand why they all call at Huddersfield. One or two per hour could be promoted to "Inter-city".

I have been left behind at Leeds coming home in the evening (physically unable to board) when most of the westbound trains I have travelled on in the afternoon/early evening have emptied out at Huddersfield. Not a very good offering to long-distance travellers.

A (Grabs tin helmet and ducks for cover)

For what purpose? The linespeed through Huddersfield isn't all that great and you'll have to go through the platform anyway, so it may as well stop. Aside from that, run one through express and you'll only end up being up the backside of the last one that went through (which happens even now when they do all stop at Huddersfield)

 

[Bald Rick]

I have been left behind at Leeds coming home in the evening (physically unable to board) when most of the westbound trains I have travelled on in the afternoon/early evening have emptied out at Huddersfield. Not a very good offering to long-distance travellers.

A (Grabs tin helmet and ducks for cover)

Given that the trains emptied out at Huddersfield, it sounds like very reason they all stop there.

 

[AndrewE]

If the trains empty out there, was it reasonable to leave long-distance passengers behind at Leeds?

The linespeed is irrelevant, I'm not asking for a faster service, just one that (as someone trying to make an Inter-city journey) I can get into... and not miss my onward conections! Locals may have to wait 15 mins or so, not being able to board might cost me and other longer-distance travellers an hour. I wouldn't advise anyone (e.g. friends from Salop)to plan a day out that way unless they hade reserved seats on the return journey.

It's the same mindset that has turned Crossrail into a parallel Central Line, and will probably make Crossrail2 equally unattractive. We should copy the RER in Paris and stop about 3 times in the centre of teh metropolis: Suburban stops to the edge of the outer core, Centre, Other side of the outer core and then as needed.

 

[Hophead]

It's the same mindset that has turned Crossrail into a parallel Central Line, and will probably make Crossrail2 equally unattractive. We should copy the RER in Paris and stop about 3 times in the centre of teh metropolis: Suburban stops to the edge of the outer core, Centre, Other side of the outer core and then as needed.

I agree completely - if it was down to me, I'd only be having stops at, say, Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon between Paddington & Liverpool Street.

 

[Mojo]

I agree completely - if it was down to me, I'd only be having stops at, say, Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon between Paddington & Liverpool Street.

Don't forget the smiley!

 

[Hophead]

Don't forget the smiley!

Here you go.....

 

[tbtc]

Another pejorative thread title

I'm not sure that "the service wasn't quite as frequent as the OP would have ideally liked it" qualifies as "stupidity", but I guess the more controversial the thread title, the more page views (and the more people like me who click on it and comment...).

I arrived at Wakefield Westgate this morning expecting to get a train through to Leeds as normal, being that this is supposedly a mainline service.

Imagine my surprise when I turn up only to find a wait of over half an hour for the next train to Leeds

You've not said when you turned up at Wakefield Westgate early on a Saturday morning (without having checked the timetable, by the sounds of it), but since your post complaining about a wait of over half an hour was at 08:35 I'm guessing you arrived before eight?

There's an 07:23, 07:40 and 07:54 within around half an hour, but maybe you missed those (or they were too late)?

What level of frequency do you think there ought to be into Leeds before eight on a Saturday morning? Given that trains may have to travel from London (VTEC) or Birmingham (XC), that means maybe a six o'clock departure on a Saturday morning?

What clown has designed this timetable ? Is it Souter's doing?

I bet Brian Souter wishes he had the powers that enthusiasts seem to attribute to him

I think that if he'd managed to rewrite the timetable to decimate the previous number of services from London at six o'clock on a Saturday morning (to ensure lots of arrivals into Leeds before nine on a Saturday) during the couple of timetable changes VTEC have had the franchise then there'd have been outrage in the enthusiast community...

We have half hourly on week days and I'm sure none of those miss out the stop.

There's a difference between the daytime service on a weekday and the service into Leeds before nine on a Saturday morning though - the demand isn't there that early on a Saturday.

I agree completely - if it was down to me, I'd only be having stops at, say, Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon between Paddington & Liverpool Street.

 

[AndrewE]

You think all trains across conurbations ought to call at all stations then?

 

[Iskra]

Good. Intercity trains shouldn't be used to plug gaps in local train services. It's why FGW mainline services are often overcrowded between Paddington and Reading, XC services between Birmingham and Wolverhampton/Coventry, etc etc.

Most won't change though, because the TOCs prefer the extra revenue they get by stopping over the (dis)comfort of their long distance passengers.

Gaps? Wakefield has loads of trains to Leeds.

Wakefield is also a city in its own right and more attractive to a lot of West Yorkshire residents than Leeds due to accessibility, ample parking that is cheaper than Leeds, and being easier to drop off/pick people up from by car. It also has reasonable London connections for Huddersfield.
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Another pejorative thread title

I'm not sure that "the service wasn't quite as frequent as the OP would have ideally liked it" qualifies as "stupidity", but I guess the more controversial the thread title, the more page views (and the more people like me who click on it and comment...).



You've not said when you turned up at Wakefield Westgate early on a Saturday morning (without having checked the timetable, by the sounds of it), but since your post complaining about a wait of over half an hour was at 08:35 I'm guessing you arrived before eight?

There's an 07:23, 07:40 and 07:54 within around half an hour, but maybe you missed those (or they were too late)?

What level of frequency do you think there ought to be into Leeds before eight on a Saturday morning? Given that trains may have to travel from London (VTEC) or Birmingham (XC), that means maybe a six o'clock departure on a Saturday morning?



I bet Brian Souter wishes he had the powers that enthusiasts seem to attribute to him

I think that if he'd managed to rewrite the timetable to decimate the previous number of services from London at six o'clock on a Saturday morning (to ensure lots of arrivals into Leeds before nine on a Saturday) during the couple of timetable changes VTEC have had the franchise then there'd have been outrage in the enthusiast community...



There's a difference between the daytime service on a weekday and the service into Leeds before nine on a Saturday morning though - the demand isn't there that early on a Saturday.

While the poster is exaggerating the problem somewhat, Wakefield does have some problems with its early morning timetable. The first train South is the 5:18 to London. Yet there isn't one to Leeds until 6:13? More people get on the 6:13 than the 5:18, so there is a case for an earlier train to Leeds IMO. There is a positive deluge of trains going South early morning due to EMT and XC having extra services running early doors and an extra VTEC at 7:13.

There is strong demand early on a Saturday morning, but it's all daytrippers or weekend visitors to London, not Leeds- there's no Leeds rush until the shoppers and drinkers come out on a Saturday and even that is easily dealt with by the high frequency of Wakefield-Leeds trains.

 

[30907]

Another pejorative thread title

I'm not sure that "the service wasn't quite as frequent as the OP would have ideally liked it" qualifies as "stupidity"

To be fair to the OP, he admitted as long ago as #6 that he'd got it wrong and that it was a rant.

 

[MCR247]

While the poster is exaggerating the problem somewhat, Wakefield does have some problems with its early morning timetable. The first train South is the 5:18 to London. Yet there isn't one to Leeds until 6:13? More people get on the 6:13 than the 5:18, so there is a case for an earlier train to Leeds IMO. There is a positive deluge of trains going South early morning due to EMT and XC having extra services running early doors and an extra VTEC at 7:13.

You have to remember that the whole ECML timetable isn't made to suit Wakefield. Whilst you look at it like 'the northbound service is poor because the southbound one is better' in reality I woulds say its more that the northbound is fairly standard, with southbound better than it should be, because as i said it isn't being run for the people of Wakefield

 

[bluealley]

Not calling at W'field would make little difference to the t'table. Trains have a big speed restriction through Westgate.

 

[glbotu]

I think this is mostly endemic of the nature of how the railways run on weekends, especially around the major Northern cities. At the moment, a large amount of the service is picked up by Intercity operators.

As a notable example (that I have a good knowledge of), Durham - Newcastle, is almost entirely operated by Intercity services, despite, from an actual use perspective, being a local commuter/recreational flow. The issue becomes that because people rarely travel on intercity services early in the morning (especially on weekends), there's very little incentive for the likes of VTEC to run earlier services on the weekends, when no-one would be on them for most of the journey, thus leaving the earliest northbound departure on a Sunday being at 0951.

Realistically, I'd suggest that what would be more appropriate, would be for the local services to fill in for the intercity services at weekends - much like some services already do in the morning peak in similar situations (where the 0746 and 0842 Northern services run in the path of the Edinburgh Fast).

 

[yorkie]

You have to remember that the whole ECML timetable isn't made to suit Wakefield. Whilst you look at it like 'the northbound service is poor because the southbound one is better' in reality I woulds say its more that the northbound is fairly standard, with southbound better than it should be, because as i said it isn't being run for the people of Wakefield

Clearly not, which is the posters point!

 

[30907]

I think this is mostly endemic of the nature of how the railways run on weekends, especially around the major Northern cities. At the moment, a large amount of the service is picked up by Intercity operators.

As a notable example (that I have a good knowledge of), Durham - Newcastle, is almost entirely operated by Intercity services, despite, from an actual use perspective, being a local commuter/recreational flow. The issue becomes that because people rarely travel on intercity services early in the morning (especially on weekends), there's very little incentive for the likes of VTEC to run earlier services on the weekends, when no-one would be on them for most of the journey, thus leaving the earliest northbound departure on a Sunday being at 0951.

Realistically, I'd suggest that what would be more appropriate, would be for the local services to fill in for the intercity services at weekends - much like some services already do in the morning peak in similar situations (where the 0746 and 0842 Northern services run in the path of the Edinburgh Fast).

I suspect one reason why neither TPE nor VTEC start early on a Sunday is that NR want an extended slot for maintenance.

More generally, and this applies to Wakefield as well, you will get a better train service travelling away from a depot first thing, and back to one late at night - particularly in the UK where operators have very few depots and prefer to put their trains to bed there!

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect one reason why neither TPE nor VTEC start early on a Sunday is that NR want an extended slot for maintenance.

More generally, and this applies to Wakefield as well, you will get a better train service travelling away from a depot first thing, and back to one late at night - particularly in the UK where operators have very few depots and prefer to put their trains to bed there!

Indeed. This is even more of a problem with the frankly, not fit for purpose, end of evening service between Leeds and Wakefield.

On Saturday the last one is about 10:40, which is a joke. I'm surprised they're allowed to get away with it.

 

[berneyarms]

Clearly not, which is the posters point!

But is that the job of the EC Mainline TOC or the local TOC?

I'd suggest the latter being honest - I think the thread title is a tad misleading.

 

[lejog]

Indeed. This is even more of a problem with the frankly, not fit for purpose, end of evening service between Leeds and Wakefield.

On Saturday the last one is about 10:40, which is a joke. I'm surprised they're allowed to get away with it.

The time of the last departures from Leeds on nearly all lines is frankly a joke, the last Calder Valley train to points west of Sowerby Bridge is 22:35, while the last train from Manchester Victoria is 23:21. Guess which is the preferred destination for a night out at the theatre etc?

You will pleased to know things are improving and there will be a departure to Westgate after 23:30 under the new Northern franchise from 2017 (the Calder Valley last service will still only be 23:00).

 

[Wolfie]

It's the same mindset that has turned Crossrail into a parallel Central Line, and will probably make Crossrail2 equally unattractive. We should copy the RER in Paris and stop about 3 times in the centre of teh metropolis: Suburban stops to the edge of the outer core, Centre, Other side of the outer core and then as needed.

Completely off-topic but you completely misunderstand the main reason behind Crossrail (and Crossrail 2). It is NOT predominantly to offer enhanced long-distance travel but to offer augmented intra-London travel opportunities. The Central line is already swamped hence the requirement to augment it. Had your plan been the proposal Crossrail would not have been built as TfL would not have provided the bulk of the funding.

 

[jopsuk]

Completely off-topic but you completely misunderstand the main reason behind Crossrail (and Crossrail 2). It is NOT predominantly to offer enhanced long-distance travel but to offer augmented intra-London travel opportunities. The Central line is already swamped hence the requirement to augment it. Had your plan been the proposal Crossrail would not have been built as TfL would not have provided the bulk of the funding.

Also, Lancaster Gate (pretty much Paddington) to Liverpool Street is 10 stops (inclusive) on the Central Line. On Crossrail it is five