East Coast IEPs Ordered - Class 800

[sprinterguy]

Also what is the exact make up of orders of Electric and Bi-Mode IEP's and how will they be split between Great Western and East Coast?

I covered that on the first page of this thread, based on the train formations that were announced last July (And the total number of carriages hasn't changed since then):

Great Western: 21 x 9-car electric trains, 36 x 5-car Bi-mode trains (57 trains - 369 carriages)
East Coast: 13 x 9-car Bi-mode trains, 12 x 5-car electric trains, 10 x 5-car Bi-mode trains (35 trains - 227 carriages)

This new order of 270 carriages would cover 30 x 9-car (Electric) trains, bringing the total number of units to 122.

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I believe the ends are going to be tapered to avoid undue difficulty with the extra length.

That is true, and the bogies moved slightly inboard from the vehicle ends to reduce the centre-throw, though I can't recall whether this will be sufficient to match the 16 metre bogie centres of the "go anywhere" mark 3 carriage.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Why has East Coast got an order for 5 car electrics in there?

I thought it would only have been 9 car electrics and 5 car Bimode for the Chieftain etc etc

 

[ainsworth74]

That is true, and the bogies moved slightly inboard from the vehicle ends to reduce the centre-throw, though I can't recall whether this will be sufficient to match the 16 metre bogie centres of the "go anywhere" mark 3 carriage.

Oh they won't be 'go anywhere' I'm sure but I'm just saying that the length shouldn't mean that they end up being narrow throughout therefore they shouldn't seem cramped on the inside.

 

[transmanche]

Why has East Coast got an order for 5 car electrics in there?

They haven't. It's an order for 30 x 9-car trains = 270 vehicles.

Edit: Ah, I see you were probably referring to sprinterguy's post #3, which mentioned 12 x 5-car electric trains which were part of the previous order.

 

[YorkshireBear]

That is true, and the bogies moved slightly inboard from the vehicle ends to reduce the centre-throw, though I can't recall whether this will be sufficient to match the 16 metre bogie centres of the "go anywhere" mark 3 carriage.

They will be the same width exactly i believe. And they wont be go anywhere like the HST. But they will be able to go on all main lines i believe.

 

[transmanche]

Thanks!

No problem.

I may well take a copy and then shout at all the officials on board if it fails my smell test :P

I think I might too!

 

[Chris125]

The MML would seem an obvious recipient for at least some of the 225 fleet - clearly they can't work every service, but they could provide an interim fleet pending further electrification to Leeds, via the Erewash Valley etc by which time they'd probably be due for retirement.

I don't think they, or indeed an IEP design, would be particularly well suited to Cross Country services down to Southampton/Bournemouth - a 110mph Dual Voltage Desiro derivative would be ideal IMHO.

Chris

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I covered that on the first page of this thread, based on the train formations that were announced last July (And the total number of carriages hasn't changed since then):

Thanks I must have missed that

What services are the 9 car Bi-modes intended to be used for?

 

[sprinterguy]

What services are the 9 car Bi-modes intended to be used for?

The principal long distance HST services to Aberdeen and Inverness, I would expect.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

The principal long distance HST services to Aberdeen and Inverness, I would expect.

Ah makes sense as those routes are unlikely to be wired anytime soon. I suppose the 10 5xcar bi-modes are intended for other off the wires destinations to Hull, Lincoln, Harrogate etc.

 

[43074]

With this speculation about where the 225s will go after IEP, How different is the acceleration of a 91+9 or 10 Mark 4s compared to a 22x? (Just wondering by the way - unfortunately I can't see the IC225s on the MML, even if I would like a few over here).


On another note, Hitachi have produced a diagram to show how much of the new trains will be 'British':

doesn't tell you much though, because AFAIK things like DRA and TPWS are specific to Britain so are likely to be made over here in the first place.

 

[DarloRich]

Well these things are always subject to change, but the draft internal layouts were published by DfT last year.

The specification states a ratio of 35% bay seating (I assume this is table seating) and 65% unidirectional seating. It allows for variable seat pitch, but specifies minimum 'knee room' in standard class of 750mm (29.5") for unidirectional seats and 735mm (29") for bay seats.

For comparison the seat pitch on easyJet is 29" - meaning the 'knee room' is much less than that. I don't know how 'knee room' is officially defined, but this post from 2010 which uses a definition of "the distance from the rear of the seat (parallel with the seat cushion) to the point on the rear of the seat in front at the height where one's knees would normally be" suggests that the IEP knee room will be on par with a Class 185, Pendolino or EMT HST and more generous than an EC/FGW/XC HST, Class 158 or a MkIV coach.

Edit: the Transport Secretary's statement says the 9-car trains will have 627 seats. In the draft layout (linked above), the 9-car train had a total of 636 seats (526 standard and 10 first) - so I expect the layout to be very similar to the draft.

Just give me a train that is at least as comfortable for the passenger and offers as good an ambiance as the train it replaces and you have a convert. Until then..........

I am assuming the new trains to be more efficient, more economical, more environmentally friendly and more reliable than the train they replace.

I expect them to be fantastic engineering creations which are poor to actually travel on for long distances.

 

[starrymarkb]

With this speculation about where the 225s will go after IEP, How different is the acceleration of a 91+9 or 10 Mark 4s compared to a 22x? (Just wondering by the way - unfortunately I can't see the IC225s on the MML, even if I would like a few over here).


On another note, Hitachi have produced a diagram to show how much of the new trains will be 'British':

doesn't tell you much though, because AFAIK things like DRA and TPWS are specific to Britain so are likely to be made over here in the first place.

That's almost identical to the one Siemens have put out for the 700 series

 

[Class172]

That's almost identical to the one Siemens have put out for the 700 series

I thought I'd seen that picture before, until you pointed out Siemens had one almost exactly the same.

 

[IanXC]

Why has East Coast got an order for 5 car electrics in there?

I can only think they're there to extend (or work with 5 car bimode) services to more off the wires destinations. Perhaps to operate a more frequent service to Bradford Forster Square, Harrogate, Lincoln, Skipton, or add Ilkley, Middlesborough, Scarborough to the map. Perhaps 2x 5 car would work Kings Cross to Leeds, with 1 unit going forward and the other awaiting a southbound working?

On the subject of the 225s, how many HSTs are proposed to operate the GW south west services? Would the 225s be able to replace those HSTs *and* the Mark 3 rakes on the Norwich route?

 

[dk1]

Please can we have the 91/MK4s on the GEML now? Heres hoping.

 

[Kettledrum]

270 new coaches getting built and we're all complaining? We are a funny bunch.

jcollins idea of using 225s for Manchester - Reading/ Southampton/ Bournemouth hadn't occured to me before, but the more I think about it the more I like it.

It takes eleven units to run the hourly service from Manchester to Bournemouth. Add in an hourly Manchester - Reading/Southampton service (i.e. replacing the "other" XC service from Manchester to Birmingham and from Birmingham to Reading/Southampton) and you'd need around twenty.

Add in a handful for Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh and maybe you've used all of the 225 sets? Wishful thinking on my behalf?

Have you forgotten about the new electric route using the new electric spine and a new NE to South Coast route? I was wondering if the new passenger service from Sheffield - Derby - Leicester - EW link - Oxford - Reading - Southampton - Bournemouth might also use 225 sets.

 

[The Ham]

Think what you like. Going on recent train interiors I will be right.

Will the new trains offer an improvement on the exiting levels of passenger comfort. I doubt it. Will they even meet the current levels of passenger comfort? Once again, I doubt it .

Agree 100%.
Voyager clone at best, and will probably be worse.
And yes I know that the internal layout has yet to be specified, but does anyone really believe that a new train will have more legroom, more luggage space, better catering facilities, more seats at full size tables, and windows aligned with the seats ? I certainly do not, and this is not random cynicism but is the result of other new trains.

And of course the existing 225 stock needs scrapping ASAP, like HSTs these are too good for todays railway.

Taken from:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...oast-main-line-iep-train-order-confirmed.html

Hitachi said the new 627-seat trains would offer 50 mm of additional leg room in standard class airline seats, wi-fi, power sockets accessible from every seat, LCD seat reservation displays 'with sophisticated traffic light vacancy notification', 10 bicycle spaces and the capability to deliver 100 cooked breakfasts or dinners per 2 h of journey time. They will operate at up to 200 km/h, but would be capable of operating at 225 km/h if infrastructure and signalling on the East Coast Main Line were to be upgraded.

Sounds like it covers a fair range of people's wish lists, although there are likely to be some who think that IEP will not be as good for one reason or another.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the subject of the 225s, how many HSTs are proposed to operate the GW south west services? Would the 225s be able to replace those HSTs *and* the Mark 3 rakes on the Norwich route?

IIRC there are 17 long distance HST's based at Laira (so about 136 mark 3's), so it is likely that would be the number being retained for the SW services.

The greater Angelar page on wikipedia lists that there are 121 mark 3's there.

That gives a total of at least 257 compared to the 302 Mark 4's, so could be doable in purly number terms, it just depends on if there were other problems to overcome.

 

[ChristopherJ]

Please can we have the 91/MK4s on the GEML now?

A bugbear of the London-Norwich route is complaints that the rolling stock is always the cast-offs from other routes: such as the 86 and 90 electics from the WCML.

The last new-built trains the Norwich route got were the class 40 diesels back in 1950-whenever: all post-stock has been second hand.

In 2019, the IC225s will be approaching, if not over, 30 years old. Does Alan Partridge still want them at that age?

If I were you Norfolk and Suffolk folk, keep dreaming of AC 444s built in the land where the man above was once Chancellor of the Reich...............

 

[Class377/5]

AC 444, also know as the 380. Brilliant units.

 

[HSTEd]

380s have the wrong door layout to be true 444 successors.
Also I don't think they have first class.

 

[tbtc]

If I had a pound for every time I've seen the 444 be suggested as an answer to something, whether a diesel version or an AC version or a DC version or a dual voltage version or a bi-mode version... they seem to be the ultimate train (in the enthusiast world)

Have you forgotten about the new electric route using the new electric spine and a new NE to South Coast route? I was wondering if the new passenger service from Sheffield - Derby - Leicester - EW link - Oxford - Reading - Southampton - Bournemouth might also use 225 sets.

I don't know what kind of services we'll see on the EW link (?) - a 225 could work well on the service that you suggest though

 

[The Ham]

One suggestion which had been made, was the running of Manchester to the South Coast, but had been rulled out by some due to the slower acceleration of the 225's compared with the Voyagers. However, given the Voyagers are currently only up to 5 coach train, a short form IC225 run as a 7+2 would be lighter than the current 9+2 whilst still providing an increase in capacity.

For instance you could have 41 first class seats in 1 coach and 409 standard class seats over 5.5 coaches with the last 0.5 coach being retained as the buffet. Compared with 26 first class seats and 252 standard class seats on a 5 coach 221, giving a capacity increase of 57% in first class and 62% in standard class.

If you compare this "new" 7+2 to a doubled up 220 the capacity is comparable (52 first class and 348 standard class seats).

Another alternitive would be about 58 first class (1.5 coaches and 12% more than a doubled up 220) and 379 standard class (5 coaches and 9% more than a doubled up 220).

With the lighter train weight (about 80t or 17% lighter) the locos's should be able to pull away a little better, meaning that they should be able to keep to the timetables almost as well.

 

[anthony263]

Have you forgotten about the new electric route using the new electric spine and a new NE to South Coast route? I was wondering if the new passenger service from Sheffield - Derby - Leicester - EW link - Oxford - Reading - Southampton - Bournemouth might also use 225 sets.

A direct service from Nottingham to Bristol via Oxford would be great

 

[dk1]

A bugbear of the London-Norwich route is complaints that the rolling stock is always the cast-offs from other routes: such as the 86 and 90 electics from the WCML.

The last new-built trains the Norwich route got were the class 40 diesels back in 1950-whenever: all post-stock has been second hand. [/QUOTE]


I thought the 3-car 170s 201-208 where the last new build trains for the Norwich/london in 1999.

 

[oliMw]

And they are as much use as a Chocolate teapot for Norwich - London Intercity Services

 

[HSTEd]

If I had a pound for every time I've seen the 444 be suggested as an answer to something, whether a diesel version or an AC version or a DC version or a dual voltage version or a bi-mode version... they seem to be the ultimate train (in the enthusiast world)

If I had a pound for every time I've seen cascaded HSTs and 225s suggested as an answer to something

They have a relatively high seating density, modest catering facilities and decent performance. They are also capable of dual voltage operation.

Frankly they are probably the most go-anywhere-do-anything electric train we have available, and a successor could be assumed to have the same characteristics.

 

[Goatboy]

If I had a pound for every time I've seen the 444 be suggested as an answer to something, whether a diesel version or an AC version or a DC version or a dual voltage version or a bi-mode version... they seem to be the ultimate train (in the enthusiast world)

Which is interesting because it goes against the opinion that enthusiasts only look wistfully at old junk and hate progress - here is a modern EMU that *is* liked, which obviously means there must be more to disliking much modern stock than just the fact it replaces old stock.

For me I like the 444 because the passenger environment is so much more suited for longer trips with its end doors and proper seperation between passenger saloon and vestibule.

 

[route:oxford]

Would a Mk4 coach be capable of accommodating modifications to make it suitable as a Sleeper coach?

 

[Bevan Price]

Since the HST engines are pretty young, could you use Class 43s and the Mk4 coaches?

I've never seen it suggested before, or at least I don't remember seeing it, so is there a reason it wouldn't work?

Been done already. Before the DVTs were complete, some ECML trains ran with 91 and 43 (HST power car) in top & tail mode - that is why some 43s were fitted with buffers. .