East Coast £8 Flat Fare Promo- Starting Short

[Dewedin]

Booked a flat fare from Edinburgh to Peterborough tomorrow but want to start short at Doncaster (on the same booked train). Don't see anything to prohibit this in the terms and conditions of the promotion:

Terms and Conditions

• Book online via the links on this page only.
• Fare is Standard Class, one way, for travel on East Coast trains only.
• Subject to availability.
• Minimum of 250,000 £8 fares available.
• No break of journey permitted.
• No upgrades or further discounts, including 10% online, Railcard and child discounts can be applied.
• Bookings must be made by midnight on 13 December for travel between 5 January and 17 February 2011.
• Availability may be limited on Fridays and Sundays.
• Only valid on date and train shown on ticket. No changes, no refunds

National Rail Conditions Of Carriage Section 16:
For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey..............................

In the event of any trouble will gentle assertion and a copy of these terms see me through?

Ticket Details:

STD SGL
Ticket type: EC FLAT FARE (not ADVANCE)
Route: AP EC TRNS ONLY
Validity: AS ADVERTISED

 

[scotsman]

Something in Advance purchase T&Cs along the lines of "You may not start your journey at any point other than the booked starting point"

Expect a hefty excess

 

[MikeWh]

Break of journey also includes starting short or finishing early. You might have a problem.

 

[Dewedin]

Something in Advance purchase T&Cs along the lines of "You may not start your journey at any point other than the booked starting point"

Expect a hefty excess

This is not an Advance Purchase ticket, it is a promotional ticket with its own Terms and Conditions. The terms do not indicate any inheritance of Advance Purchase ticket Ts & Cs.

Break of journey also includes starting short or finishing early. You might have a problem.

See definition of 'break of journey' above direct from the NRCCs, and indeed the title of the section is 'Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations' indicating these are separate acts.

 

[scotsman]

STD SGL
Ticket type: EC FLAT FARE (not ADVANCE)
Route: AP EC TRNS ONLY
Validity: AS ADVERTISED

Suggests it's on Advance terms as far as trains are concerned?

 

[Dewedin]

If that's what they meant to imply then it should be a lot clearer than two letters in the 'Route' field of which 99% of passengers wouldn't understand the meaning, but I believe this is the standard way of making it clear the ticket is only valid on an East Coast service. Using the AP EC TRNS ONLY could be for database/convenience reasons (the alternative being creating an entirely new Route entry). I think the validity being 'As Advertised' plus a copy of the relevant material is far more convincing than that.

As an aside, what should I do if the TM won't budge on demanding a full fare? I've heard something about an 'Unpaid Fare Notice,' is that the right thing to ask for? It can be quite difficult to get your money back from a company once you've paid it.

 

[lyesbkz]

As an aside, what should I do if the TM won't budge on demanding a full fare? I've heard something about an 'Unpaid Fare Notice,' is that the right thing to ask for? It can be quite difficult to get your money back from a company once you've paid it.

It will also be difficult to successfully appeal against an UPFN especially when you already seem to doubt whether what you will be doing is permitted before you've done it. (It's hard enough to appeal when you know what you're doing should have been allowed!) I'd be careful with this, you could end up having to pay for a new full-fare ticket for your journey.

 

[Dewedin]

It's a peculiar case that this is an inflexible ticket where start of journey doesn't seem to be restricted, but I'm not doubting what I am doing is permitted by all the terms I can see.

Travelling on my booked train on the correct date? Check.
Not breaking my journey? Check.
Not travelling overdistance? Check.

I am splitting this journey with a Wakefield to Doncaster single and a PBO to London Zones 1-6 on the other end, due to changed plans. I have tickets covering my entire journey from origin to destination, it's obvious I'm not evading a fare. I'm already paying more than the likely cost (had I been able to plan ahead) of a through Advance ticket Wakefield to London. Not that this has any bearing on validity but it could have a bearing on the application of common sense.

I think the train's going to be packed with football fans travelling for Arsenal v Leeds, anyway, unlikely I'll even see the TM.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

To be fair to the OP, I have noticed myself that the EC booking engine offers these £8 tickets under the name "EC flat fare" where (if it was an Advance) it would show "Advance". Similarly, the booking confirmation and back-up review of your purchases refer to:

Passengers:
1 Adult(s)
Ticket(s):
1 EC Flat Fare
Ticket Terms and Conditions:
EC Flat Fare : Valid only on your chosen EC service. No Refunds or Changes Allowed

At no point does it include the word 'Advance' nor 'AP'.

If I then choose to "View Full Details" of my booking, then, this appears:

Outward journeynn Jan 2011
Return journey
Depart: Newcastle dep. nn:nn. Arrive: Grantham, nn:nn

Changes: 0 Duration: nh nnm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seating:Coach: X
Seats: xxA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Passengers
1 Adult
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EC Flat Fare £8.00

valid via: Via East Coast trains Only.
Valid only on your chosen EC service. No Refunds or Changes Allowed.

terms and conditions

And if I THEN click on 'terms and conditions', we see

EC Flat Fare
Discounts: No Child or Railcard discounts apply.
Refunds: Your ticket is non-refundable.

In the event that your booked train is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, arrangements will be made for you to travel on a different train service.
Changes: Your ticket is non-changeable.
Conditions: Travel is only allowed on the date/train(s) booked and in the seat reserved for you.
Availability: Available on selected East Coast trains.
Break of journey: Break of journey is not allowed.
Validity: Your ticket is only valid on the date and East Coast train service service shown on your tickets and in the actual seat booked
Train operator: East Coast.
Booking deadline: Fare available subject to availability. Customers advised to book well in advance of travel.

I've been assuming, for my own confidence, that they carry identical restrictions to an Advance and that appears to be correct, but that isn't immediately apparent.

 

[Dewedin]

In the full details, terms and conditions (which essentially produces the Fare Manual/Avantix data) of an Advance ticket booking it will specifically state starting and ending journeys at an intermediate station is not allowed, this text is absent for the Flat Fare. Looks like I could ask the TM to compare this on their Avantix machine if it came to that.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I hesitate in doubting this post:

In the full details, terms and conditions (which essentially produces the Fare Manual/Avantix data) of an Advance ticket booking it will specifically state starting and ending journeys at an intermediate station is not allowed, this text is absent for the Flat Fare. Looks like I could ask the TM to compare this on their Avantix machine if it came to that.

but, . . . I have just requested Avantix to provide the T&Cs of the £8 EC Flat Fare I referred to above (NCL-GRA) and this is (edited) the explication:

NXP - EC FLAT FARE
00481 - AP EC TRNS ONLY
1 Adult @£ 8.00 = £ 8.00
__________
£ 8.00
Standard Class Single

<snip>

BREAK OF JOURNEY:
Customers may not start, break and resume, or end their journey at any intermediate station except to change to/ from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

 

[cuccir]

I think its clear, with the avantix information, the intention of this ticket is to be a discounted advance purchase. I didn't ever consider it anything else until now. however, looking purely at the website T and Cs, you may have a case. Id probably expect a TM to give you a UPFN, and though you might have q case, I'm not confident that you would win an appeal - perhaps someone with more experience of UPFNs might advise?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that your appeal would be based on a fairly minor technicality, given that I'd read it and interpret no break if journey as prohibiting starting and finishing short. On the other hand of you kick up a fuss, you might embarass east coast into not charging you, as with our Durham professor...