East Anglia Bus Scene

[Man of Kent]

Both things can be true

Having the money definitely helps but they’re very savvy and focused in Norfolk (and that may have influenced the strength and success of their bid).

Indeed so, and there are potentially a whole host of other reasons for the difference between the two territories. How did each support services during Covid? What is the concessionary reimbursement rate? How integrated is school transport? And how willing is the operating industry to adapt and invest? To some extent, Norfolk has got lucky with a host of well-run SME businesses, plus a part of First that is on the up. Contrast this with Suffolk, where Go-Ahead was consistently loss-making, and where many of the smaller businesses do not seem to project the same sheen of quality as their equivalent in Norfolk.

 

[Teds]

Just puts Suffolk to shame to say the least, the combined authority and its mayor cannot come soon enough from my perspective...

Be careful what you wish for. One Liverpool Mayor abolished almost all the bus lines in one go (with interesting results) and nearer home, the current Cambridgeshire Mayor is not exactly supportive of bus services.

 

[pjnathanail]

Suffolk in fairness have a strong team of officers in their transport team and have exceptionally close integration of the local bus network and the statutory home to school network, with the latter supporting vast swathes of the “commercial” local bus network.

They were always going to be on the back foot compared to Norfolk, with Norfolk getting £47m of original BSIP funding, and their demographics and geography are very different.

In Norfolk you have a very strong City bus network (Norwich) which all bar one of the major operators are part of. And the one who isn’t, Lynx, has a fantastic tourism patronage base. That means there’s a lot of money coming in to help operators cover overhead and run other bus services across the county.

Suffolk doesn’t have that luxury with its urban centres a lot more dispersed. Bury St Edmunds also looks partially to Cambridgeshire and Sudbury looks to Essex, and both CPCA and ECC have a total lack of transport strategy and transport competence, which makes cross border working harder (whereas Norfolk and Suffolk work exceptionally closely together, hence the cross border network in the north of Suffolk is much stronger).

 

[Wawanesa]

Despite his location being "Nottingham", I'm sure pjnathanail is extremely well placed to know all about dealing with councils in East Anglia.

 

[Sleepy]

Konnect bus in Norwich appear to have a problem with washing their vehicles, noticed several examples that don't seem to have been cleaned for a month ??

 

[F Great Eastern]

Konnect bus in Norwich appear to have a problem with washing their vehicles, noticed several examples that don't seem to have been cleaned for a month ??

Goes with the territory in Suffolk anyway, often vey scruffy vehicles inside and out.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wouldn’t be surprised if the wash is out of use. One of the great ironies is that when you need them most in winter is when they’re most likely to break!

 

[Trainman40083]

Wouldn’t be surprised if the wash is out of use. One of the great ironies is that when you need them most in winter is when they’re most likely to break!

Maybe it has suffered damage in the cold weather.

 

[stuart81]

Posting here as the First Eastern Counties thread is locked.

Just trying to think about the logic behind the ex-Kernow B9TL's transferring here?

• To replace AU58 B9TL's?
• To replace Enviro 400 deckers to Essex?
• To replace StreetLites at Norwich to Ipswich to replace the AU58 B7RLE's?

 

[buslad1988]

Posting here as the First Eastern Counties thread is locked.

Just trying to think about the logic behind the ex-Kernow B9TL's transferring here?

• To replace AU58 B9TL's?
• To replace Enviro 400 deckers to Essex?
• To replace StreetLites at Norwich to Ipswich to replace the AU58 B7RLE's?

I’d say all of that makes sense. I’d imagine the 59 plate ex London deckers in Great Yarmouth will hold on until their electrics arrive.

The AU58 B9TL’s have certainly done their time on the coastal routes after the X1 - due for replacement.

Moving the remaining E400’s on to Essex also seems logical.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I’d say all of that makes sense. I’d imagine the 59 plate ex London deckers in Great Yarmouth will hold on until their electrics arrive.

The AU58 B9TL’s have certainly done their time on the coastal routes after the X1 - due for replacement.

Moving the remaining E400’s on to Essex also seems logical.

There are only 10 B9TLs coming from Kernow and there's a number of 57 plates in EC and Essex that are also a bit ripe! Of course, the important thing is how they are underneath but the 58 plates are quite tidy, at least cosmetically. Better than the existing FEC 11 and 12 plates TBH

 

[Pyromaniac]

Those 10 B9TL's I imagine will just replace the random rag tag of older deckers on the eastern coast. Nothing spectacular as it is a small number.

That said, we aren't First so who knows what the actual plan is ha.

 

[buslad1988]

So it seems (reading on other threads) that First Essex have picked up the Chelmsford Park & Ride; hence the ex Kernow E400MMC’s arriving and are currently being painted into black.

Transport Made Simple allegedly didn’t bid or weren’t successful, however they then said they’d run the service commercially… which the county council declined. Which makes you wonder if there’s underlying issues - as letting them take it over would have saved them some money! ECC have also had issues with them over tenders in the past which made the media.

Judging by Norwich Park & Ride standards, TMS aren’t amazing. They appear to throw anything on it from a breadvan to an 07 place E200 or a decker. What’s other people’s experiences of them since they’ve taken over Go-Aheads ops here? They used to have a high profile with Konect’s core inter urban routes into Norwich.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So it seems (reading on other threads) that First Essex have picked up the Chelmsford Park & Ride; hence the ex Kernow E400MMC’s arriving and are currently being painted into black.

Transport Made Simple allegedly didn’t bid or weren’t successful, however they then said they’d run the service commercially… which the county council declined. Which makes you wonder if there’s underlying issues - as letting them take it over would have saved them some money! ECC have also had issues with them over tenders in the past which made the media.

Judging by Norwich Park & Ride standards, TMS aren’t amazing. They appear to throw anything on it from a breadvan to an 07 place E200 or a decker. What’s other people’s experiences of them since they’ve taken over Go-Aheads ops here? They used to have a high profile with Konect’s core inter urban routes into Norwich.

First Essex has won the two P&Rs in Chelmsford - here is the tender award notice https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/085511-2025?origin=SearchResults&p=42

Lots​

Lot 1. Sandon Park and Ride Service
Lot 2. Chelmer Valley Park and Ride Service

Supplier​

• FIRST ESSEX BUSES LIMITED

Contract value​

• £15,960,000 including VAT

Some of the salient details

• 6 March 2026 to 5 March 2030
• Possible extension to 5 March 2033; option to extend up to 3 years in increments at the Authority's discretion
• The contracts provides grounds to upgrade the service by adding a Double Decker Bus to the fleet operating the service, with a proportionate increase in daily rate.

• Lot 1. Sandon Park and Ride Service​

  • 2 tenders received
  • 2 tenders assessed in the final stage:
    • 1 submitted by small and medium-sized enterprises (SME)
    • 0 submitted by voluntary, community and social enterprises (VCSE)
  • 1 supplier awarded contracts
  • 1 supplier unsuccessful (details included for contracts over £5 million)

• ---

  Unsuccessful suppliers​

  • STEPHENSONS OF ESSEX LIMITED

• Lot 2. Chelmer Valley Park and Ride Service​

  • 2 tenders received
  • 2 tenders assessed in the final stage:
    • 1 submitted by small and medium-sized enterprises (SME)
    • 0 submitted by voluntary, community and social enterprises (VCSE)
  • 1 supplier awarded contracts
  • 1 supplier unsuccessful (details included for contracts over £5 million)

• ---

  Unsuccessful suppliers​

  • STEPHENSONS OF ESSEX LIMITED

**********************************************************************************************************

So you can see that TMS didn't bid. Why not - who knows? However, it wasn't that they submitted a non-compliant bid apparently. Now if they had submitted a commercial Sandon bid, the council may have had to recommence the whole tender process (for one site) with no guarantee that TMS would provide a like for like service at Sandon or that they wouldn't then withdraw it again some time in future.

On the wider subject of TMS...

Can't comment on the Norwich P&R but the Postwick one was always supposed to be Sprinters. I saw the Postwick site in summer and was surprised how quiet it was. Perhaps the Mon to Fri loads are higher and demand something larger or, more likely, the Sprinters are better suited to rural country routes so deckers or singles are now preferred. I haven't been up since summer when Konectbus was still in existence so can't comment on how things have changed.

What I can say that TMS took the Essex ops of Central Connect and done a very good job at replacing the frankly awful fleet of stuff that Ensign had in their yard (ex London and ex First) with a mix of decent secondhand stuff and what looks to be a fair chunk of new (I guess leased) fleet, as well as improving standards overall.

Now the question is whether a) are they over extending themselves with the Go Ahead East Anglia purchase in terms of financially and management control and b) can they succeed where Go Ahead couldn't? Of course, they've now pulled out of much of the East Midlands in order to consolidate in East Anglia so that's going to help but there's questions about making such a big move.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The former Go East Anglia is actually a shambles in so many ways.

The timekeeping on some of their routes out of Sudbury is poor, the general attitude of some of the staff is not great and the buses are very grubby inside and out and not in great condition. It's an operation that really needs a lot of investment to turn it around and a lot of money invested in the fleet. From the grubby floors of the Omnidekkas, to the poles on the Olympus vehicles where the paint has flaked off, those vehicles look every inch their age and then more some.

Recently they have started running double deck vehicles on routes where the single deckers are plenty enough, as in the word of a driver who works there, they are worried about the single deckers will break down if used in service more than they need to and they are vital for schools, so they're now opting not to put them out on lesser used services in term tme to protect against any mechanical issues that may cause issues for schools.

Saying that things are not going much better at First in Ipswich these days, since they stopped repainting the vehicles into the Ipswich Reds livery the presentation of vehicles has fallen down a long way, with many different liveries now seen thanks to the numbers of transfers in (including some wearing Norwich branding decals for months) and many with very tatty paint jobs and many vehicles not being able to manage many straight panels at all and in dire need of bodywork TLC.

 

[Trainman40083]

The former Go East Anglia is actually a shambles in so many ways.

The timekeeping on some of their routes out of Sudbury is poor, the general attitude of some of the staff is not great and the buses are very grubby inside and out and not in great condition. It's an operation that really needs a lot of investment to turn it around and a lot of money invested in the fleet. From the grubby floors of the Omnidekkas, to the poles on the Olympus vehicles where the paint has flaked off, those vehicles look every inch their age and then more some.

Recently they have started running double deck vehicles on routes where the single deckers are plenty enough, as in the word of a driver who works there, they are worried about the single deckers will break down if used in service more than they need to and they are vital for schools, so they're now opting not to put them out on lesser used services in term tme to protect against any mechanical issues that may cause issues for schools.

Saying that things are not going much better at First in Ipswich these days, since they stopped repainting the vehicles into the Ipswich Reds livery the presentation of vehicles has fallen down a long way, with many different liveries now seen thanks to the numbers of transfers in (including some wearing Norwich branding decals for months) and many with very tatty paint jobs and many vehicles not being able to manage many straight panels at all and in dire need of bodywork TLC.

Maybe it shows that profits are well down on bus operation.

 

[Wawanesa]

I can't comment on the Norfolk part of the Konectbus business but I have a fair amount of knowledge about the Hedingham / Chambers operations, both as independent operators prior to 2012 and as part of Go-Ahead until 2025.

As private operators both were profitable but their overheads were much lower, very few administrative staff being employed and even fewer management reports being written. At Hedingham, the early morning spare driver for many years was D.R. MacGregor MBE, BSc(Econ) and if he wasn't available then one of the fitters would go out driving. Enough new vehicles were bought to cover the all day duties while elderly but lovingly tended deckers would cover the schools work. Under Go-Ahead, there was a move to sweating the assets by enhancing and extending routes which of itself wasn't a bad thing but NO new buses were bought in the thirteen years of Go-Ahead ownership. Instead, time expired buses were drafted in from other Go-Ahead companies and then expected to do a full days work. Despite this or perhaps because of it, the business was loss making every year.

One assumes that TMS have bought the business for the proverbial £1 and it is to be hoped that they can turn it around

 

[F Great Eastern]

I can't comment on the Norfolk part of the Konectbus business but I have a fair amount of knowledge about the Hedingham / Chambers operations, both as independent operators prior to 2012 and as part of Go-Ahead until 2025.

As private operators both were profitable but their overheads were much lower, very few administrative staff being employed and even fewer management reports being written. At Hedingham, the early morning spare driver for many years was D.R. MacGregor MBE, BSc(Econ) and if he wasn't available then one of the fitters would go out driving. Enough new vehicles were bought to cover the all day duties while elderly but lovingly tended deckers would cover the schools work. Under Go-Ahead, there was a move to sweating the assets by enhancing and extending routes which of itself wasn't a bad thing but NO new buses were bought in the thirteen years of Go-Ahead ownership. Instead, time expired buses were drafted in from other Go-Ahead companies and then expected to do a full days work. Despite this or perhaps because of it, the business was loss making every year.

One assumes that TMS have bought the business for the proverbial £1 and it is to be hoped that they can turn it around

That's generally the way things are though in those independent and/or family companies, they pride themselves on making sure trips run and if they are ever short of a driver, then a family member or a fitter or whoever is hanging around the depot will get called in and operate the services.

You see since Chambers have took over the route between Hadleigh and Sudbury they have had more cancelled services and delays than I can remember Beestons having in a couple of decades of running that service, a fleet that is in far more battered and worn condition both inside and out and in my experience at least, certainly not a better standard of driving. Yes, Beestons might not be part of the £3 fare scheme, but the slightly higher price means that you end up getting a fleet that is invested in and cleaned every night and maintained to the highest standards, staff that are paid a better hourly rate which gives you a bigger pool of staff to prove from, and an operator that doesn't cut corners.

My experience of Hedingham and Chambers before Go Ahead bought them out was that they looked after their vehicles and they prided themselves on level of service. All you had after Go-Ahead came in was a sweating of the assets, expanding on ever more contracts when they could barely run the existing ones, very little investment in the fleet, not being great payers either, unreliable services. They might have been involved in the £2 and £3 fare scheme, but it's clear that the current economics of that operation do not work in terms of the money coming in being enough to sustain a high quality bus service.

I don't know what TMS are going to do with it, because so far I've seen very little I have to be honest. Some tinkering around the edges and trying to get yet more contracts and BSIP money out of the local authority, but in my book before taking on more and more work, they should get their own house in order. Some operators across East Anglia who care for their vehicles and run a tight ship, are not at all happy that they get beat on tenders by Hedingham and Chambers when said operation operates the level of service they do.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't know what TMS are going to do with it, because so far I've seen very little I have to be honest. Some tinkering around the edges and trying to get yet more contracts and BSIP money out of the local authority, but in my book before taking on more and more work, they should get their own house in order. Some operators across East Anglia who care for their vehicles and run a tight ship, are not at all happy that they get beat on tenders by Hedingham and Chambers when said operation operates the level of service they do.

Perhaps that is the answer. They only took control of Go East Anglia just over 4 months ago. They might be getting their house in order in the background - seeing how the business is actually performing, sorting out back office processes, looking at where there is overlap between their existing and new businesses, etc.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Perhaps that is the answer. They only took control of Go East Anglia just over 4 months ago. They might be getting their house in order in the background - seeing how the business is actually performing, sorting out back office processes, looking at where there is overlap between their existing and new businesses, etc.

Well they're going to need a load of money from somewhere to deal with the fleet, I don't know how deep their pockets are but an operation that has been run down for as long as this one has, will need some deep, deep pockets to turn it around because all of those Omnidekkas need replacing and whilst technically some of the single deckers and Olympus vehicles should be okay for another few years, they're so worn and been let go for so long that it's probably not worth the money to tidy them up.

 

[stuart81]

That's generally the way things are though in those independent and/or family companies, they pride themselves on making sure trips run and if they are ever short of a driver, then a family member or a fitter or whoever is hanging around the depot will get called in and operate the services.

You see since Chambers have took over the route between Hadleigh and Sudbury they have had more cancelled services and delays than I can remember Beestons having in a couple of decades of running that service, a fleet that is in far more battered and worn condition both inside and out and in my experience at least, certainly not a better standard of driving. Yes, Beestons might not be part of the £3 fare scheme, but the slightly higher price means that you end up getting a fleet that is invested in and cleaned every night and maintained to the highest standards, staff that are paid a better hourly rate which gives you a bigger pool of staff to prove from, and an operator that doesn't cut corners.

My experience of Hedingham and Chambers before Go Ahead bought them out was that they looked after their vehicles and they prided themselves on level of service. All you had after Go-Ahead came in was a sweating of the assets, expanding on ever more contracts when they could barely run the existing ones, very little investment in the fleet, not being great payers either, unreliable services. They might have been involved in the £2 and £3 fare scheme, but it's clear that the current economics of that operation do not work in terms of the money coming in being enough to sustain a high quality bus service.

I don't know what TMS are going to do with it, because so far I've seen very little I have to be honest. Some tinkering around the edges and trying to get yet more contracts and BSIP money out of the local authority, but in my book before taking on more and more work, they should get their own house in order. Some operators across East Anglia who care for their vehicles and run a tight ship, are not at all happy that they get beat on tenders by Hedingham and Chambers when said operation operates the level of service they do.

Give them a chance for crying out loud. Maybe they are actually trying to come up with a robust plan rather than a knee-jerk reaction - you can't suddenly magic up a replacement fleet overnight or re-design an entire network. The days of family members / fitters hopping in to cover a shift is long gone.

The comparisons to your beloved Beestons are getting quite tiring - one is a multi depot operation with over 100 vehicles and 80 odd routes, the other has less than a dozen vehicles with 1 service and a few school contracts.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Give them a chance for crying out loud. Maybe they are actually trying to come up with a robust plan rather than a knee-jerk reaction - you can't suddenly magic up a replacement fleet overnight or re-design an entire network. The days of family members / fitters hopping in to cover a shift is long gone.

The comparisons to your beloved Beestons are getting quite tiring - one is a multi depot operation with over 100 vehicles and 80 odd routes, the other has less than a dozen vehicles with 1 service and a few school contracts.

I'm actually not one of these people who think big groups are bad and independents are good, but I make a special case in East Anglia, nothing Go Ahead have done over the years, and the acquisitions that they have made has had much good news for passengers. It's not just in Suffolk, the same stuff has happened in Norfolk as well with what happened with Anglian Bus. Stagecoach also have done pretty poorly around these parts and First are hardly the bees knees, especially outside Norwich.

The average punter just cares about whether their bus turns up and how reliable it is, and unfortunately for a number of reasons, in recent years Hedingham and Chambers doesn't have a very good reputation in that regards. They don't care how many vehicles that an operator has, they want a reliable bus service and preferably on vehicles that are cared for inside. It's hard to argue that over the years that the big groups have done well in East Anglia, almost every acquisition of an independent has led to a decline in service in some way.

The reason I mention Beestons, is that Chambers and Hedingham were once independent companies too, and when they were, they may not have had the newest fleet in the land, but they provided an awful lot better service than they have provided since they have became part of a big group who proceeded to invest very little in it's operation and cancelling services is not really seen as a problem like it would have been in the independent days and if those people were still at the helm who were before the sell out.

Everybody wants TMS to succeed, but the question is are their pockets deep enough to actually turn around an operation whose problems are long in the making?

 

[Sleepy]

They don't appear to be making much effort in Norfolk - filthy dirty old buses that don't seem to have been washed this year !! First in comparison look a much more professional operation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Everybody wants TMS to succeed, but the question is are their pockets deep enough to actually turn around an operation whose problems are long in the making?

As I alluded to before, the same issues were encountered with an albeit smaller operation in Central Connect/Galleon Travel.

It may be that they are assessing the business, understanding where it makes money and doesn't, and then looking at fleet options in terms of purchase or lease. It is early days.

They don't appear to be making much effort in Norfolk - filthy dirty old buses that don't seem to have been washed this year !! First in comparison look a much more professional operation.

When that gets mentioned with any operator, it can often be that the wash has failed in cold weather and that they're awaiting parts for repair. The age of the fleet... Well, I refer you to the answer above.

 

[F Great Eastern]

They don't appear to be making much effort in Norfolk - filthy dirty old buses that don't seem to have been washed this year !! First in comparison look a much more professional operation.

I can assure you that First isn't anything special in Suffolk, despite the bar from the rest of the operators not being especially high.

From the moment the new brand identity coming in, all repaints seemed to have ceased apart from a token couple that happened when the brand first came in. Meanwhile the swap of P&R Enviro 300s going to Essex in part removed, part still there vinyls and a bunch of Streetlites in various liveries and states coming in with the P&R now seemingly having buses picked up by Guinevere and Set of Balls Number 2 from a machine that used to run the lotto.

That's before we start to talk about the fact that a load of the Enviro and Eclipses have very rough panels that are about as straight as a circle.

 

[buslad1988]

East Anglia is a mixed bag in general and it genuinely is pot luck.

Way up there in terms of standards, brand identity and overall good operators from the outset are Lynx, Border Bus and Sanders. Even Stephensons whilst relatively strong in Essex, often now appear to throw out a motley fleet in Suffolk.

Ipswich Buses, whilst generally good and well presented have lost their way identity wise, and are on a slippery slope in terms of fleet and needing propping up. The ex Carters ops are now on their last legs and required BSIP money to keep them going.

Mulleys, as previously mentioned are well put out, but appear to see buses as a side line to coaches.

First is quite disparate, the immediate greater Norwich and Excel network is pretty decent. Yes, as per Ipswich there is quite the mixed bag of liveries, but that seems a group wide First problem in general recently. It’ll take time to get repaints done, whilst transfers to rid themselves of their oldest stock continue.

The region never has been particularly good bus territory. Too well spread out between towns with little in between and high car usage. Combine that with austerity measures and (some) councils bickering etc. has added to the mix. Not to mention concessionary fares and lack of sufficient reimbursement which continue to impact hugely on bottom lines.

There’s no doubt every operator wants to turn out a good fleet, provide a great network and in turn pay their staff adequately… but some are fighting a losing battle.

I know operators in Suffolk are gravely concerned with Somerset Passenger Solutions driver requirements and recruitment, it could impact hugely on staff levels should many potentially jump ship to them. I mean who wouldn’t want to drive a brand new fleet of buses, be mainly out of town, and not have to deal with the general public/school kids (and the grief that comes with it)… and be on the same wages with better working hours!

 

[chubs]

I gave Konect a go this week. I live on an ex Anglian route that then became Konect. The drivers were always good and vehicles clean. Under Go Ahead as above the vehicles were all swapped out for life expired vehicles cascaded in from elsewhere, usually filthy inside and outside. Drivers seemed quite miserable last year too.

Same decrepit dirty vehicles now under TMS but the bus was on time both ways and the drivers seemed happy and friendly. I would hope there is some sort of fleet replacement plan, as it really isn't good enough though. First Norwich used to be the same 20 years ago but they invested heavily in the their fleet here and their drivers. The difference is obvious.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Beestons updates

Vehicles in
MUN 55N - 2026 Volvo MCV Evotor Coach
MUN 57N - 2026 Volvo MCV Evoseti Double Decker
WX65 WYL - 2015 Mercedes Benz Sprinter Onyx Conversion

Vehicles out
229 LRB - 2021 Plaxton Panther 3 Coach
YN61 AXC - 2011 Plaxton Profile Coach

Another coach is due in the next month which will see of the sibling off the other 2021 Panther (226 LRB).

 

[Wawanesa]

The Clacton depot of Konectbuses is currently using an ADL Enviro200 MMC demonstrator YY25DKX. According to their facebook post on the Colchester borough bus users page, it is a first glimpse of the exciting changes underway.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The Clacton depot of Konectbuses is currently using an ADL Enviro200 MMC demonstrator YY25DKX. According to their facebook post on the Colchester borough bus users page, it is a first glimpse of the exciting changes underway.

A company running a demonstrator that has been offered around by ADL to pretty much every operator of note in the East Anglia and beyond is an indicator of absolutely nothing.

Nothing but absolute PR spin. When we start seeing actual newer vehicles they have paid for with their own hard money, now that'll be something.