Earnings?

[A-driver]

Your points are all valid and not necessarily ones I would dispute (although I would point out that higher baseline pay also equates to the rate carried into rest day working and the final salary pension, plus the free oyster to self and spouse is worth a lot to some). A lot of our rights and entitlements were sold down the river to get it though, which isn't so good.

I accept your reasons for why LOROL may pay more, but my original point was the inference I felt was in the quote I picked up on (not made by you) that somehow the work of LOROL is not befitting of those rates. I was merely pointing out the level of intensity and that there might be a misconception as to what is involved in driving the core route for example (I'm talking ELL drivers here). Even then I'm not saying LOROL drivers deserve more per se, it's certainly not the pinnacle of driving, but from what I understand it is as demanding in terms of out and out concentration as most driver jobs you could find out there, even if there is a less broad skill base in terms of knowledge of different traction, etc, etc.

I certainly agree with that and of course most higher paid tocs have worse terms and conditions, its largely said across the country that FCC drivers have the best t&cs but a average salary compared to some.

I have never understood why people think intercity drivers should get more. I do a mix of suburban and mainline work and without a doubt the suburban is harder work and I feel more deserving of my pay after a day of stopper than after a day of cruisers. That said, its different skills needed for both types of work but I certainly think lorol drivers are more deserving of higher pay than intercity drivers.

And I'm certainly not saying that intercity driving is easy before someone mis-quotes me, I'm saying that in certain areas its less intense and Lorols pay has turned it from a company that many drivers would avoid due to its work to one of the most desirable tocs to work for attracting drivers from numerous neighbouring companies.

 

[SkinnyDave]

I certainly agree with that and of course most higher paid tocs have worse terms and conditions, its largely said across the country that FCC drivers have the best t&cs but a average salary compared to some.

I have never understood why people think intercity drivers should get more. I do a mix of suburban and mainline work and without a doubt the suburban is harder work and I feel more deserving of my pay after a day of stopper than after a day of cruisers. That said, its different skills needed for both types of work but I certainly think lorol drivers are more deserving of higher pay than intercity drivers.

And I'm certainly not saying that intercity driving is easy before someone mis-quotes me, I'm saying that in certain areas its less intense and Lorols pay has turned it from a company that many drivers would avoid due to its work to one of the most desirable tocs to work for attracting drivers from numerous neighbouring companies.

Who out of the intercity drivers have the best terms and conditions outside salary?

 

[notadriver]

Personally I think Intercity drivers deserve the best wages as they are driving the most prestigious trains at the fastest speeds permitted in the country. At Virgin Sundays are outside and they are at 53k+ and quite rightly so. Tilting Pendolinos and Super Voyagers are complex bits of kit.

 

[A-driver]

Personally I think Intercity drivers deserve the best wages as they are driving the most prestigious trains at the fastest speeds permitted in the country. At Virgin Sundays are outside and they are at 53k+ and quite rightly so. Tilting Pendolinos and Super Voyagers are complex bits of kit.

Well except that they have a computer to do all the fault & failures, are not doo (have a guard to do dispatch, announcements, assist during disruption etc) and the work is far less intense than you or I do daily.

Are you really saying that they have a harder life going from london to Manchester and back stopping at 8 stations all day than you or I stopping at numerous stations all day on busy commuter lines chasing yellows into London etc whilst mr virgin driver pretty much gets a couple of hours running on greens?

 

[reapz]

Well except that they have a computer to do all the fault & failures, are not doo (have a guard to do dispatch, announcements, assist during disruption etc) and the work is far less intense than you or I do daily.

Are you really saying that they have a harder life going from london to Manchester and back stopping at 8 stations all day than you or I stopping at numerous stations all day on busy commuter lines chasing yellows into London etc whilst mr virgin driver pretty much gets a couple of hours running on greens?

class 2 work is always crappy

 

[Vicpaul]

That's not the view of quite a few of the experienced drivers that have moved over to LOROL from other TOC's. 'Intense' is the word I most hear them use compared to what they used to drive.

Although the diagrams are a little better now, there can be up to 150 station stops on the longer diagrams with lots of restrictive aspects on very short signal sections. Please explain what you mean by "what they do for the work"?

No different from general metro work though is it. As a former driver (tube) and soon to be mainline driver that will be doing metro i find stopping constantly isn't that taxing however this a personal opinion

 

[A-driver]

No different from general metro work though is it. As a former driver (tube) and soon to be mainline driver that will be doing metro i find stopping constantly isn't that taxing however this a personal opinion

But at Victoria you will find you have more variety and not all the work is 'see a station stop' - the grinsteads and dorkings are fast and some of the suttons allow you to miss batteries to! And many other suburban depots in London are similar in that they have some semi fast work or at least ECS runs.

Lorol are pretty unique in being purely 'see a station stop'.

I don't mind stoppers at all but find them harder work than mainliners-either spend 30mins sitting back drinking tea watching the speedo sit on the '100' mark or spend 30 mins stopping at the monitors on the platform, open doors, watch people get on & off, close doors, start train again 20 times over!

 

[Vicpaul]

I agree, I stated in an earlier post that its definitely more taxing than the fast stuff. I just don't think its so intense to justify such a drastic pay difference

 

[notadriver]

I agree, I stated in an earlier post that its definitely more taxing than the fast stuff. I just don't think its so intense to justify such a drastic pay difference

Well you haven't driven for Lorol so you don't know how intense it is. In any case as i have said before the pay difference is to discourage qualified Lorol drivers going to other TOCs to find better work. This is different from tube drivers who if wanting to work for a TOC must go through the whole training course from scratch.
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Well except that they have a computer to do all the fault & failures, are not doo (have a guard to do dispatch, announcements, assist during disruption etc) and the work is far less intense than you or I do daily.

Are you really saying that they have a harder life going from london to Manchester and back stopping at 8 stations all day than you or I stopping at numerous stations all day on busy commuter lines chasing yellows into London etc whilst mr virgin driver pretty much gets a couple of hours running on greens?

I agree our work is probably harder but at the same time ..... Well the high speed drivers at our depot get 3k more and I believe they deserve it even though they are running non stop for a lot of the time. In fact thinking about it HSS on FGW pays more than say LTV work so maybe it's a case of the promotion path for a driver being 'easier' work which pays more ?

 

[Vicpaul]

Well you haven't driven for Lorol so you don't know how intense it is. In any case as others have said the pay difference is to discourage qualified Lorol drivers going to other TOCs to find better work. This is different from tube drivers who if wanting to work for a TOC must go through the whole training course from scratch.

Not something I would want to, I've several friends on lorol and have spent a number of times in the cab to justify my thoughts. However as stated its a personal opinion I take nothing away from any driver and the work we do

 

[notadriver]

Not something I would want to, I've several friends on lorol and have spent a number of times in the cab to justify my thoughts. However as stated its a personal opinion I take nothing away from any driver and the work we do

Fair comment but remember you're not a qualified driver ... Yet.

 

[bystander]

Having done both, my view is that true high speed work is just as taxing as is "metro" work - although in a different way. Running at 125, you have to keep your wits properly about you all the time, and it would be easy to drift off if you were to allow yourself, whereas on units, when I'm accelerating to a max of 90 and coasting for a minute or so then chucking the brake back in to trundle into a station, while there are more buttons to press and levers to pull, the level of concentration is entirely different. You won't find me looking at the totty and thinking about what's for dinner etc when I'm hooning through stations at max speed in a high speed train, but frankly I am able to do a lot of that when doing stopping or even semi fast unit work. The braking and train handling issues become much more important when you're doing 100-125 in a heavier, less predictable train.

 

[A-driver]

Having done both, my view is that true high speed work is just as taxing as is "metro" work - although in a different way. Running at 125, you have to keep your wits properly about you all the time, and it would be easy to drift off if you were to allow yourself, whereas on units, when I'm accelerating to a max of 90 and coasting for a minute or so then chucking the brake back in to trundle into a station, while there are more buttons to press and levers to pull, the level of concentration is entirely different. You won't find me looking at the totty and thinking about what's for dinner etc when I'm hooning through stations at max speed in a high speed train, but frankly I am able to do a lot of that when doing stopping or even semi fast unit work. The braking and train handling issues become much more important when you're doing 100-125 in a heavier, less predictable train.

I don't disagree with that but I am saying that it dosnt automatically make you more deserving of higher pay. There are other reasons intercity drivers get higher pay.

 

[reapz]

Having done both, my view is that true high speed work is just as taxing as is "metro" work - although in a different way. Running at 125, you have to keep your wits properly about you all the time, and it would be easy to drift off if you were to allow yourself, whereas on units, when I'm accelerating to a max of 90 and coasting for a minute or so then chucking the brake back in to trundle into a station, while there are more buttons to press and levers to pull, the level of concentration is entirely different. You won't find me looking at the totty and thinking about what's for dinner etc when I'm hooning through stations at max speed in a high speed train, but frankly I am able to do a lot of that when doing stopping or even semi fast unit work. The braking and train handling issues become much more important when you're doing 100-125 in a heavier, less predictable train.

metro work and 90mph......

 

[A-driver]

metro work and 90mph......

Outer suburban is as described-go to peterbourgh or Cambridge and you are basically accelerating to 80/90 and then coasting for a minute or so before braking.

 

[Latecomer]

No different from general metro work though is it. As a former driver (tube) and soon to be mainline driver that will be doing metro i find stopping constantly isn't that taxing however this a personal opinion

Not something I would want to, I've several friends on lorol and have spent a number of times in the cab to justify my thoughts. However as stated its a personal opinion I take nothing away from any driver and the work we do

I would say that it is different from general metro work. I'm not saying LOROL drivers deserve more than metro drivers or mainline drivers, but the intensity as well as other reasons mentioned does justify a wage at the higher end of the scale.

I'm surprised you've been allowed in the cab a number of times, LOROL are pretty strict about permitting anyone other than those with a cab pass in and drivers are taking a massive risk permitting anyone else in. Did you travel the core ELL route? I respect the experience you bring from the tube but there are very distinct differences on the tunnels sections (we have our own rule amendments for example). I believe we have some of the steepest gradients on the rail network with extremely short platforms (on both rising and falling gradients) where stopping on the stop board has to be extremely precise. Signal sections are very short. If you are doing 40 and come across a single yellow (the core is all 3 aspect) the brake needs to go in immediately because you will be at the overspeed loops for the red very quickly. It is nothing like the other metro sections of the line. We drive the core and then have more typical sections down to Palace, West Croydon and Clapham Junction. Most of the time this is where we can ease up on the maximum concentration.

Of course any decent train driver can stop precisely on stop boards on gradients and respond appropriately to signal aspects but times those risk factors with 15-20,000+ station stops a year, needing to get it right every time and believe me it is different from most metro work. Like I say, most metro drivers who have come over to the East London Line (not necessarily NLL) would agree about the difference. We're no more deserving than anyone else but 8 hours and 150 stops is some justification for the wage.

 

[A-driver]

I'm surprised you've been allowed in the cab a number of times, LOROL are pretty strict about permitting anyone other than those with a cab pass in and drivers are taking a massive risk permitting anyone else in.

Southern cab pass holders are permitted in lorol trains and vice versa, or at least they were a few years back when i was a driver down there.

Same as cab passes valid for peterbourgh-London can be used on any operator-FCC, EC, GC, HT or freight.

 

[notadriver]

Southern cab pass holders are permitted in lorol trains and vice versa, or at least they were a few years back when i was a driver down there.

Same as cab passes valid for peterbourgh-London can be used on any operator-FCC, EC, GC, HT or freight.

They would only be permitted on the relevant sections of route - Queens Road Peckham to Clapham Junction and New Cross gate to Crystal Palace/West Croydon. The intense core route section would be off limits.

 

[A-driver]

They would only be permitted on the relevant sections of route - Queens Road Peckham to Clapham Junction and New Cross gate to Crystal Palace/West Croydon. The intense core route section would be off limits.

Well yes, but would still be on lorol trains with lorol drivers to talk to.

 

[455driver]

No different from general metro work though is it.

Actually I think it is, on the class 2 work I used to do there were sections of route where you could relax a bit and sometimes get a bit of a move on but LooRolls work is extremely intense all the time with no let up and it does not appeal to me one little bit.

 

[A-driver]

Actually I think it is, on the class 2 work I used to do there were sections of route where you could relax a bit and sometimes get a bit of a move on but LooRolls work is extremely intense all the time with no let up and it does not appeal to me one little bit.

I would think that's more route specific-when running out of a London terminal once you get Out of the M25 area stations become further apart and so you spend more time coasting at line speed where as lorol have a lot of work like the north, south & east London lines which don't get anywhere near the m25. Therefore it is all close stations throughout.

 

[Latecomer]

I would class all of the stations south of Surrey Quays as far apart compared to the ELL core (with the exception of Penge/Anerley maybe)!

 

[JAMBO]

Personally I think Intercity drivers deserve the best wages as they are driving the most prestigious trains at the fastest speeds permitted in the country. At Virgin Sundays are outside and they are at 53k+ and quite rightly so. Tilting Pendolinos and Super Voyagers are complex bits of kit.

Why is that exactly??? What makes them better than the next driver! What makes you think that driving at 125 all day looking at greens is difficult and deserves a silly salary?!

 

[Vicpaul]

I can dip in to my bag and pull out several route cards that will have 8 hours work and as many stops for vic. There was a post on tube drivers not being as deserving the bare minimum in the pic would be 128 stops, if you were booked an 8 hour turn you'd generally drive an 8 hour turn and had no real switch off time as you have to get the brake in on 99% of single yellows to ensure the train stops.

But like I say it's just a personal view of what I can deal with myself

 

[notadriver]

Why is that exactly??? What makes them better than the next driver! What makes you think that driving at 125 all day looking at greens is difficult and deserves a silly salary?!

Well I didn't say it was difficult mate - I just drive outer suburban trains. I don't know what it's like operating at those sorts of speeds but I'm sure it's not 'looking at greens' all the time. What I think is that the kind of work is quite prestigious and a step up from my type of work. In the old days (steam) wasn't it only the most experienced drivers in the top link that got that kind of work?

 

[notadriver]

I can dip in to my bag and pull out several route cards that will have 8 hours work and as many stops for vic. There was a post on tube drivers not being as deserving the bare minimum in the pic would be 128 stops, if you were booked an 8 hour turn you'd generally drive an 8 hour turn and had no real switch off time as you have to get the brake in on 99% of single yellows to ensure the train stops.

But like I say it's just a personal view of what I can deal with myself

Manually driven tube trains yes but those on the ATO lines no.

 

[Latecomer]

I can dip in to my bag and pull out several route cards that will have 8 hours work and as many stops for vic. There was a post on tube drivers not being as deserving the bare minimum in the pic would be 128 stops, if you were booked an 8 hour turn you'd generally drive an 8 hour turn and had no real switch off time as you have to get the brake in on 99% of single yellows to ensure the train stops.

But like I say it's just a personal view of what I can deal with myself

But the comparison is between network rail TOC's. You were saying "for the work they do". All I've tried to do is justify that it is because of the work we do why LOROL might be at the higher end of the scale (as different from more deserving - I don't think any driver is more deserving than another, but people make choices about what work they prefer and what wage suits). The wage table is not between rail and tube. The point I was making is that the work is more intense on the ELL (certainly on the core) than most metro work with other TOC's (well LOROL is a concession, but that's another story). You are coming from a different viewpoint because of the nature of driving you were doing before. This thread was about comparing TOC wages with TOC wages.

A lot of people can and do deal with the intensity. I enjoy it most of the time and there's some fantastic elevated views outside the tunnel sections but I'm too knackered to bother with rest day working after 6 full diagrams. Drivers who come over because of the headline pay are sometimes taken by surprise because it's something they haven't been used to. Others can and do leave for lower wages because they prefer the work elsewhere.

There are cab ride videos on you tube where people can get a sense of the core (though not of the gradients). You are probably used to it, but there are a number of stations like Rotherhithe and Canada Water where the stop boards are beyond the end barriers (your cab effectively being beyond the station) to make sure the rear doors are on - but go 6 feet too far after a momentary lapse and it would be classed as an overrun because the front doors would be beyond the barrier with all the issues that result. There are no other stations outside of the core on the routes I drive where that would apply. I'll happily let the train run for 6 feet or more beyond the stop boards elsewhere if I've been a bit too fast in rather use step 3 because there is no consequence if I do. Those are the differences I'm talking about. A minor misjudgement has far more serious implications on sections of the ELL than in most other places - hence the 100% concentration required at all times. A-driver is right in saying that a lot of drivers would look elsewhere if the rates were the same because LOROL would find it hard to retain otherwise. Saying that, I do think they are a very good employer.

 

[Vicpaul]

I'm not comparing LUL and lorol, That was with reference to an earlier remark regarding tube wages.

I still feel the metro for southern and lorol is very similar even worse in some cases with the dramatic station platform work, where marks change constantly at the minute and also the constant stock length variations. there is a lot more in the mix it would seem.

 

[A-driver]

I'm not comparing LUL and lorol, That was with reference to an earlier remark regarding tube wages.

I still feel the metro for southern and lorol is very similar even worse in some cases with the dramatic station platform work, where marks change constantly at the minute and also the constant stock length variations. there is a lot more in the mix it would seem.

Completely agree but southern also have more variation in work, link progression or depot moves to less intense work and mainline work. Lorol is all see a station stop work, same routes (ok depot depending but not as much variation as other TOCs) and no link progression or chance of moving to other types of work.

 

[Latecomer]

We'll certainly have to agree to disagree then! I do drive on parts of the Southern network (all DOO). I agree we don't have to deal with the stock length variations or splitting, etc but there is nothing (except perhaps sections of the underground) that compares to the ELL core.You're struggling to accept that but it's true. I'm not knocking Southern or any other TOC's that include metro, because they do stuff I might not enjoy. I suspect you'll never buy the 'intensity' part of what I say, but I'm very far from alone in believing that to be the case and all it was was a response to what seemed like a bit of a snipe from you at LOROL wages originally. But like I say, we'll agree to disagree.

Edit: This post in response to Vicpaul not A-driver.