Early signalling history MR and M&SLR boundary

[Tony Whittaker]

Hope a student of signalling history may have some ideas on this. Back in 1867, the MR had just opened the Buxton-New Mills route as their way into Manchester. By agreement with the M&SLR, they accessed Manchester from New Mills onwards was on M&SLR tracks. The signalboxes the MR installed on their section did not have the most uptodate block instruments with bell codes in their boxes. Intead, they had the inferior telegraphic needle pointers. My question is, at the boundary of MR and MSLR, I suspect that if the M&SLR had the more modern equipment, then they would have insisted that the last Midland box, ie Bugsworth, would have to have M&SLR-compatiable bell equipment too, so that it could communicate with the first M&SLR box after the boundary, ie New Mills East. Does anyone know anything about this? Grateful thanks. Therein lies a story - the double crash and double runaway of 9 September 1867, which I am writing up, and anyone is welcome to have a copy.

 

[Gloster]

The accident report just says block telegraph system. I must admit I am a bit baffled about the MS&LR being that near to Chinley. The usual practice was that the first line to be there would decide and that it was often compatibility with the systems in their existing box that was likely to be the overriding factor, at least before 1889.

 

[Tony Whittaker]

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, the MS&LR was the first there, though would benefit by having a lot more traffic from the Midland. From I think abou 1870, the two railways set up a joint committee to run the line, guess a bit like Cheshire Lines later. The full accident report certainly appears to refer to talking telegraph needles which needed to be pinned, rather than proper block bells etc. Nor did there appear to be an easy way to send a runaway train alert, the Chapel signaller did not do this. The newspaper report is clear that it was Bugsworth box that alerted New Mills East box, which acted in time - a tight run thing. The boundary between MR and MSLR appears to be beyond the point at which the East box goods loop rejoined the main line, possibly as far as the future location of Gowhole sidings.
https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_DovesHoleTunnel1867.pdf

 

[John Webb]

Reading the accident report it seems the whole line, MR and MS&LR parts, were worked by telegraph instruments rather than block instruments with bells. Seems clear too that various irregularities were taking place as well! But I don't have specific information on the line or its boxes. May be worth contacting the Signalling Record Society to see if they have any further information?

 

[Tony Whittaker]

Reading the accident report it seems the whole line, MR and MS&LR parts, were worked by telegraph instruments rather than block instruments with bells. Seems clear too that various irregularities were taking place as well! But I don't have specific information on the line or its boxes. May be worth contacting the Signalling Record Society to see if they have any further information?

Thanks John, very grateful for idea.

 

[Gloster]

Having dug out the Liverpool & Manchester Railway Atlas it seems that the situation is a bit more complicated. The line that arrived on 1 July 1865 at New Mills from Compstall, the temporary terminus between Romiley and Marple, was MSLR and MR joint all the way from Hyde Junction. The line that arrived at New Mills from the Peak Forest direction on 1 October 1866 was Midland. This suggests to me that neither the MR and MSLR could be considered to be at New Mills ‘first’ and that signalling over the line from Hyde Junction could have been MR throughout, or it could be MSLR as far as New Mills and MR beyond.

As Romiley and Marple Wharf (and no doubt other boxes on the line) were of MR design, even though they were erected later, it seems more likely to me that the MR was responsible for the line’s signalling. (Against this is the fact that Woodley Junction was to a MSLR/GCR design, but it is possible that responsibilities were altered once the direct Romiley-Ashburys line was opened, even though this was also joint MSLR/MR.)

To be honest, I really don’t know. The possibility that it was MR signalling throughout is no more than my opinion of the most likely option: it is little more than a guess.

Possibly the only way to find out would be to delve into the books and minutes of one or other company and hope that the information was recorded when negotiations regarding the line’s construction were being made. But that is a very long shot.

As said, if anyone knows, they are probably in the Signalling Record Society.

 

[Tony Whittaker]

Having dug out the Liverpool & Manchester Railway Atlas it seems that the situation is a bit more complicated. The line that arrived on 1 July 1865 at New Mills from Compstall, the temporary terminus between Romiley and Marple, was MSLR and MR joint all the way from Hyde Junction. The line that arrived at New Mills from the Peak Forest direction on 1 October 1866 was Midland. This suggests to me that neither the MR and MSLR could be considered to be at New Mills ‘first’ and that signalling over the line from Hyde Junction could have been MR throughout, or it could be MSLR as far as New Mills and MR beyond.

As Romiley and Marple Wharf (and no doubt other boxes on the line) were of MR design, even though they were erected later, it seems more likely to me that the MR was responsible for the line’s signalling. (Against this is the fact that Woodley Junction was to a MSLR/GCR design, but it is possible that responsibilities were altered once the direct Romiley-Ashburys line was opened, even though this was also joint MSLR/MR.)

To be honest, I really don’t know. The possibility that it was MR signalling throughout is no more than my opinion of the most likely option: it is little more than a guess.

Possibly the only way to find out would be to delve into the books and minutes of one or other company and hope that the information was recorded when negotiations regarding the line’s construction were being made. But that is a very long shot.

As said, if anyone knows, they are probably in the Signalling Record Society.

That's very interesting. Thanks so much. So it was obviously in any case a long planned joint endeavour, and realistically, the Midland was surely the senior partner. New Mills etc always felt very Midland in style.