Earlier start for standard clockface timetables

[Philip]

Do people think more of the principle routes should have their standard daytime timetables starting earlier than the typical 06:30-07:00 time? I'm thinking about the clockface timetable on say 75% of all lines starting at 05:00, with important lines connecting cities having a skeletal service between 04:00-05:00.
A lot of people start work much earlier than 08:00-09:00 and on too many routes the railway doesn't cater for these workers, forcing many of them to drive, take an unreliable bus, or potentially excluding people who don't drive or have a car from a lot of job opportunities.
To give an example, the first arrival into Manchester from Crewe tomorrow morning isn't until 06:40, even though Shrewsbury has an arrival from Crewe at approx 05:40.

Rather than just focusing on improving Sunday services to cater for leisure, should more be done to improve the rather lacklustre weekday early morning offering on many routes?

 

[stuu]

When will the engineering works take place?

 

[Philip]

When will the engineering works take place?

Surely many works could begin after 22:00 the previous evening, with a skeletal service from then until just after midnight and then more or less a complete shut down until service resumes at 04:00? Engineering works could be scheduled more frequently to balance out the shorter window they have per evening.

 

[Dr Hoo]

To give an example, the first arrival into Manchester from Crewe tomorrow morning isn't until 06:40, even though Shrewsbury has an arrival from Crewe at approx 05:40.

That's a bus. Not sure that a "lot of people" will be queueing at the RRB stop in Wrenbury at 0410!

How do engineering staff cope with the "skeletal services"? You really are talking about an 'engineering window' of less than four hours. Allowing for set-up time, isolations, getting plant on track, etc. that's really no time at all.

 

[Philip]

That's a bus. Not sure that a "lot of people" will be queueing at the RRB stop in Wrenbury at 0410!

How do engineering staff cope with the "skeletal services"? You really are talking about an 'engineering window' of less than four hours. Allowing for set-up time, isolations, getting plant on track, etc. that's really no time at all.

Normally it is a train, the 04:54 from Crewe.

Four hours should still be enough for a couple of hours of actual repairs, refurbishment or inspection and with more frequent possessions scheduled across the year hopefully it would make up for the couple of hours less of a time window per possession compared with now. Temporary heavy speed restrictions could be installed during the skeletal service hours, to allow engineers to set up/pack up safely.

 

[zwk500]

Normally it is a train, the 04:54 from Crewe.

Four hours should still be enough for a couple of hours of actual repairs, refurbishment or inspection and with more frequent possessions scheduled across the year hopefully it would make up for the couple of hours less of a time window per possession compared with now. Temporary heavy speed restrictions could be installed during the skeletal service hours, to allow engineers to set up/pack up safely.

Passenger trains anywhere near engineers and their possessions is a big no-no.

 

[The Planner]

Normally it is a train, the 04:54 from Crewe.

Four hours should still be enough for a couple of hours of actual repairs, refurbishment or inspection and with more frequent possessions scheduled across the year hopefully it would make up for the couple of hours less of a time window per possession compared with now. Temporary heavy speed restrictions could be installed during the skeletal service hours, to allow engineers to set up/pack up safely.

You are not doing a refurb in 4 hours. The efficiency and cost of such short possessions is like burning five pound notes for fuel.

 

[JonathanH]

Surely many works could begin after 22:00 the previous evening, with a skeletal service from then until just after midnight and then more or less a complete shut down until service resumes at 04:00? Engineering works could be scheduled more frequently to balance out the shorter window they have per evening.

Do people not need to travel in the late evening as well as the early morning?

 

[6Gman]

As well as the (civil) engineering issues already mentioned what about the mechanical engineering issues i.e. overnight maintenance of stock.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely many works could begin after 22:00 the previous evening,

they could, but trains are busy then. Typically much busier than trains at 0500.

Four hours should still be enough for a couple of hours of actual repairs, refurbishment or inspection

it isn’t.

 

[Philip]

Even putting overnight engineering works to the side for the moment, what about the actual topic of this thread - the level of rail service before 06:30 on many lines and the need to get things moving earlier? Is there a strong case for this before you consider civil and mechanical engineering problems? There must be ways around the engineering problem because some routes like Manchester-Blackpool have had a skeletal through-the-night service for many years.

The vast majority of trains have quietened down by 8-9pm, never mind 10, so I think the idea of a skeletal service after 10 so that most trains can go into overnight maintenance between 10pm-4/5am is workable.

 

[Fokx]

The last pre-6am train I worked had 360+ seats for all of the 2 passengers traveling

 

[JonathanH]

The vast majority of trains have quietened down by 8-9pm, never mind 10, so I think the idea of a skeletal service after 10 so that most trains can go into overnight maintenance between 10pm-4/5am is workable.

Is your intention to try to establish some sort of late night curfew? I do wonder whether everyone would be healthier if they lived their life between 5am and 10pm instead of 7am and midnight.

In the real world, I am not convinced that there is more demand between 5am and 6am than between 10pm and 11pm.

 

[telstarbox]

Definitely not the case on the lines south of London - last week I was at London Bridge at 11pm on two different days and both times it was heading with passengers. I'm sure @Bald Rick will back me up.

 

[D365]

Is your intention to try to establish some sort of late night curfew? I do wonder whether everyone would be healthier if they lived their life between 5am and 10pm instead of 7am and midnight.

Off-topic, but I'm trying this exact adjustment... not going well so far.

 

[skyhigh]

In the real world, I am not convinced that there is more demand between 5am and 6am than between 10pm and 11pm.

Same here. I was on a train that departed at 05.41 this morning. 3 passengers in 8 coaches. I suspect the same line was considerably busier at 22.00 last night.

From my experience in working trains, late night services are almost always much busier than early mornings.

 

[deltic]

Demand for early morning and late evening services will vary by location and day of the week. It's not always clear we have the balance right and many timetables still reflect the situation pre-privatisation. Although I noticed ScotRail a few years back added late night trains on Fridays out of Glasgow.

Engineering work often seems to be used as an excuse for not changing things but access is rarely required every day

 

[alxndr]

Engineering work often seems to be used as an excuse for not changing things but access is rarely required every day

It's becoming increasingly difficult to get any maintenance done during the day due to changes in working practices and the shift away from working under lookout protection.

Some places do have access booked and used every single night and still struggle to squeeze it all in even if everything goes perfectly. If the night time window was shortened even more it would be chaos unless far more staff are found (and even then there's only so much you can do simultaneously without affecting each others work).

If there's problems then you lose more time. Recently I had a planned four hour window. A 70 minute late running train meant that by the time the possession was put in place I had just over two hours to get all the kit to site, do the work, test, and pack up. I had to cancel half the work to avoid the risk of an over run. If that happened with an even shorter planned possession time you might not even be able to get anything done at all.

 

[Hadders]

The vast majority of trains have quietened down by 8-9pm, never mind 10, so I think the idea of a skeletal service after 10 so that most trains can go into overnight maintenance between 10pm-4/5am is workable.

This is wide of the mark, in my experience. Go and take a look at Thameslink or LNR trains out of London after 22:00, they are very busy. More are needed at these times not fewer.

It's not uncommon to have to stand between Kings Cross at Stevenage on a Friday night post midnight.

 

[jfollows]

I consider myself an early riser, but I have never wanted trains to run earlier than they do. On the other hand, occasionally I have wanted them to run later than they do. This seems to be the general tenor of the comments here. Of course, some people will think otherwise but I don't think they're other than a small minority.
I think the only time in my life I wanted an earlier train from Crewe towards Manchester was when I got off the up Highland Sleeper at Crewe, and to be honest I didn't much mind the wait. But looking at the timetable now it doesn't appear to be a long wait anyway.
I have noticed over my life that the morning rush hour appears to be getting earlier, in my youth a train at 07:15 wouldn't have been anywhere near as busy as it is today. But that just means having a better service at the rush hour peak; there are two more trains Wilmslow-Manchester between 7am and 8am than there used to be (one of them is the Liverpool service which isn't running currently) so that seems good.

 

[yorksrob]

The priority ought to be having trains running until past 23:00.

If the engineers need a longer possession, a RRB should be provided. I suspect the reason we have early closedown is that no one wants to cough up for the RRB.

 

[RT4038]

Normally it is a train, the 04:54 from Crewe.

Four hours should still be enough for a couple of hours of actual repairs, refurbishment or inspection and with more frequent possessions scheduled across the year hopefully it would make up for the couple of hours less of a time window per possession compared with now. Temporary heavy speed restrictions could be installed during the skeletal service hours, to allow engineers to set up/pack up safely.

Surely this train at 04h54 from Crewe is effectively a positioning working from the Depot, rather than a 'must have because of the large demand of passengers'?
Outside of main commuting lines (into London particularly) there must be very little demand for trains at 5 in the morning - especially on rural routes such as Crewe to Shrewsbury!

 

[The Planner]

The priority ought to be having trains running until past 23:00.

If the engineers need a longer possession, a RRB should be provided. I suspect the reason we have early closedown is that no one wants to cough up for the RRB.

If the access is over and above the normal, ie; more disruptive NR pays the TOC for the RRB. Operators very much push back about cancelling last trains for engineering work.

 

[yorksrob]

If the access is over and above the normal, ie; more disruptive NR pays the TOC for the RRB. Operators very much push back about cancelling last trains for engineering work.

Yet the last trains from Leeds to Wakefield are earlier on a Saturday than any other day, so clearly the "possession" has very much been built into the timetable.

 

[mike57]

I often use the early train (5.40) out of Seamer towards York and Manchester they are then hourly throughout the day. If there was an earlier service I doubt I would use it. The 5.40 is never busy, and given all the other problems TPE have and issues with engineering/maintenance time I don't see the need for an earlier service.

Heading towards Hull Doncaster and Sheffield from home (Bempton) the first train is 7.20 If there were an hour earlier service I would use it, but given the rural nature of that route from home as far as Hull I doubt it would be busy.

Any improvements in hours of operation are going to cost money and my view is that there are other higher priorities for any spare money.