e320/Class 374 Eurostars - What will happen to Class 373?

[GNER 373]

I was down at KGX today and decided to pop my head into St Pancras for a quick look around. It got me thinking about how nice the e320's would look when they go into service on the Eurostar routes.

However what do people think will happen to the current 373 stock?

Is there any plans to filter them onto the French railways or will we see them in use on UK routes (non Eurostar) similar to the North of London units used previously on the White Rose services from KGX-YRK and KGX-LDS?

Apart from the obvious platform length problems they would face, do you think the Class 374's will oust the 373's into use on the British Mainlines?

With capacity a major concern in the next few years would it not pay to use these relatively 'young' fleet on the ECML or WCML with platforms lengthened?

It's a costly idea but surely we can't let them go to waste?

What's your thoughts?

 

[starrymarkb]

There are only a few 374s (8 IIRC) and they are for expansion to Germany (15kV 16 2/3Hz) and Deeper in to France and the Netherlands (1500V DC). They might even be Swiss compatible too - All are off limits to 373s (some do support 1500V for Ski Trains & Avignon)

 

[ainsworth74]

Nothing they're remaining on the routes they always have. The 374s are being used for expansion purposes not to replace existing stock.

 

[GNER 373]

Argh! Ok then! That's a good thing.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Class 374? Surely that's too logical for the RSL - shouldn't they be class 791 or something?

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[MK Tom]

Class 374? Surely that's too logical for the RSL - shouldn't they be class 791 or something?

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Naa surely the 'logical' (standard RSL) thing to do would be skip fifty numbers to 39x then wonder why you've run out of 3xx numbers.

I did hear talk of the narrow loading gauge of the 373s meaning they could get used on services from the classic main lines to the continent after HS2 had taken traffic off the WCML and ECML. I've had HS2 people throw this 'possibility' at me when I complain about MK and Coventry losing out on HS2 services.

 

[Class377/5]

Class 374? Surely that's too logical for the RSL - shouldn't they be class 791 or something?

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Don't worry, they are not so simple with carriages being numbered with 10 digits.

 

[Chris125]

I did hear talk of the narrow loading gauge of the 373s meaning they could get used on services from the classic main lines to the continent after HS2 had taken traffic off the WCML and ECML. I've had HS2 people throw this 'possibility' at me when I complain about MK and Coventry losing out on HS2 services.

Not impossible but highly unlikely - by the time HS2 opens they'll be over 30 years old, too slow for the new line and impractical on the classic network. Depending on their condition at least some might be sold abroad but scrap is probably the most likely option post-Eurostar.

Chris

 

[starrymarkb]

Don't worry, they are not so simple with carriages being numbered with 10 digits.

Is that the full UIC number?

 

[jopsuk]

Don't worry, they are not so simple with carriages being numbered with 10 digits.

although it is obviously non-standard (by UK system), this makes sense. Especially if it is eg for the third carriage in unit number 12 of class 374
Class Unit Carriage
374 012 03

If all units were numbered this way it would be less confusing and mean less chance of clashes (I'd number locos as having a carriage number of 00 by default, and single-carriage MUs as 01)

Of course, if you were re-numbering everything, you could also use th opportunity to clear up the mess that is current numbering. I wouldn't, for example, have the two Eurostar classes in the same small range as the Electrostar range.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is that the full UIC number?

Full UIC numbers may be clunky, but really, it's a superb way of dealing with interoperability issues without making anyone change their internal numbering systems. Both a kludge and elegent.

 

[starrymarkb]

Full UIC numbers may be clunky, but really, it's a superb way of dealing with interoperability issues without making anyone change their internal numbering systems. Both a kludge and elegent.

I have to agree, though IIRC Switzerland did need to change their system (it was a mix of Alphanumeric and Roman Numerals! - ie HGe4/4 II 001 - and the large number of Re4/4* designs did need sorting out)

 

[jopsuk]

Didn'''t know that- but by the sound of it has helped there. Certainly better than declaring a rigid central system that everyone had to renumber every vehicle to fit. I wonder how many currently operating (excluding heritage) classes of locomotives and MUs there are in Europe (including UK and non-EU connected rail systems)? On a unified system you'd probably also want a "class number" for each different type of passenger and freight rolling stock

 

[starrymarkb]

Oh it did. Given that any 60mph+ electric BoBo locomotive design was classed as Re4/4 it was chaotic. Most Narrow Gauge operators still use the old system, but then their stock doesn't really intermingle (only large Narrow Gauge networks are the MGB/RhB and the Zentralbahn/BOB/MIB - though in the latter the ZB uses a different voltage to the others so there is no through working)

As for the count up... I might have a go (standard gauge only)

 

[jopsuk]

Have fun. You'll need to make class on whether the same model in different countries count as different classes, and if the same thing but with different power systems (mutli electrification, bi mode etc varients) are seperate classes or sub classes (if you went with british designations).

 

[Goatboy]

Are they planning to refurbish the 373's at any point? I travelled last month and whilst the experience was, as always, excellent, the coaches were very tired inside and very obviously dated both in terms of styling and condition.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are they planning to refurbish the 373's at any point? I travelled last month and whilst the experience was, as always, excellent, the coaches were very tired inside and very obviously dated both in terms of styling and condition.

Yes - and refurbished trains should be appearing this year:

http://www.railway-technology.com/features/featurebetter-by-design-eurostars-700-million-facelift

http://www.rail.co/2012/10/18/first-eurostar-train-enters-700m-refurb-scheme/

It always seems to me that when this sort of thing is done the first train takes absolutely ages, as they make the final decisions about anti-corrosion work for the class based on what they find when they take the first one to bits.

 

[Engineer]

How about refitting the third rail equipment and running a Gatwick Express or Bournemouth service from Waterloo International platforms, with short formation units.

 

[Chris125]

How about refitting the third rail equipment and running a Gatwick Express or Bournemouth service from Waterloo International platforms, with short formation units.

Even if such a service was practical and could be justified there are plenty of drawbacks from using such trains, both financially and operationally, yet they offer no obvious benefit over conventional 3rd rail stock - arguably the biggest issue with the current GatEx rolling stock is the intercity layout with end doors.

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

Even if such a service was practical and could be justified there are plenty of drawbacks from using such trains, both financially and operationally, yet they offer no obvious benefit over conventional 3rd rail stock - arguably the biggest issue with the current GatEx rolling stock is the intercity layout with end doors.

Chris

Indeed running any sort of service from the Waterloo International platforms towards the SWML and onwards towards Bournemouth is a non starter without grade separation between Waterloo and Clapham Jn; and AFAICS every recent NR publication reckons that isn't ever going to happen...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

How about refitting the third rail equipment and running a Gatwick Express or Bournemouth service from Waterloo International platforms, with short formation units.

No chance .....(inflexibilty , cost , non - standard etc etc etc)

 

[jopsuk]

How about refitting the third rail equipment and running a Gatwick Express or Bournemouth service from Waterloo International platforms, with short formation units.

They're needed for Eurostar, that would be a very inefficient use of platform length at any station other than International (due to the power car+half power car at each end), you'd be using 186mph units on a maximum 100mph service plus, as said, the track layout doesn't allow it.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

They're needed for Eurostar, that would be a very inefficient use of platform length at any station other than International (due to the power car+half power car at each end), you'd be using 186mph units on a maximum 100mph service plus, as said, the track layout doesn't allow it.

Exactly - the future for Waterloo International is as a base for standard EMU operation to the SW heartland. 373 on an outer commuter line would be - if you pardon the old pun , like putting a racehorse on a milk round. They did well for a few years on Kings Cross to Leeds and York workings in GNER days, - but they are expensive trains to operate. Note how the SNCF uses some of the spare sets on Lille to Paris fast services.....

 

[route:oxford]

Would they be suitable for operating cross-border services when Scotland goes independent.

ie. Disembark from Pendolino at Carlisle, change to an "international" platform for the cross-border service?

I'm guessing that the 373s were designed to inhibit attempts at people smuggling.

 

[jopsuk]

if Scotland does become independent, it is very unlikely the border will close. The SNP proposals certainly don't call for it, and as I understand Scotland would remain in fiscal union (ie retain £ sterling). There are innumerable cross border roads. No need for theatrics with trains!

Even the border with Ireland isn't exactly secure!

Also, the 373s are not going to be surplus. They're likely to be operating the Three Capitals service till they are withdrawn to be scrapped!