E-Tickets or M-Tickets to Station Groups

[mrcaa]

When I used to buy paper tickets to Manchester, if I bought an Anytime Day Return the destination would be Manchester Stations (MCR) and I could get on or off at any of those stations. Whenever I buy an e-ticket or m-ticket through any of the apps now it’s always issued to a specific station, even if I choose Manchester (All Stations) in the search. This means it doesn’t work on the barriers at the other stations. I asked TfW about this and they said:

“I have contacted our retail team for further information and have been advised that Manchester may have their own cluster of stations in the gate line base data but we only issue point to point tickets. Therefore we are unable to provide an all stations ticket online.”

Is this correct and does anyone know why and whether there’s any way to get an e-ticket that works at all Manchester Stations?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What specific fares are being discussed here? It depends on how the fares are set up. Advances are very often to a specific station as this avoids any confusion where people may think they have validity beyond that.

 

[mrcaa]

It's an Anytime Day Return from Chester (the £22.90 one). I'm sure these used to be issued to the Manchester Stations group as paper tickets from the station kiosks and ticket machines but maybe something's changed?

Anytime Day Return | National Rail

Looking for Anytime Day Return? A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

A couple of years ago, for the fares they controlled, TfW created duplicate point-to-point fares to individual members of group stations, e.g. Manchester Piccadilly for fares to Manchester Stations. It's unclear why they did this - I can only imagine it might have been to have more granular control over fulfillment methods, but in reality there are other ways of doing this so this wouldn't really have been necessary. However they seem to have enabled e-tickets almost universally* so it has become a moot point and now only causes confusion; they should abolish the point-to-point fares in my view.

Many ticket buying sites do not make it clear what the fare origin and destination of the tickets you're buying are - you only find out once the tickets are issued. This prevents you from making an informed (and sensible) decision to buy the most flexible ticket, i.e. the one issued to the group station, and so in a small way I do believe that ticket retailing sites have a part to play.

In many cases you will still be able to use a point-to-point ticket to travel to/from other group station members - e.g. an "Any Permitted" return between Chester and Manchester Piccadilly would be valid to go out via Warrington Bank Quay and 'stop short' or break your journey at Manchester Oxford Road, and you could return via Piccadilly and Northwich or Crewe.

*Except for journeys where it's anticipated you'll use Merseyrail, who continue to veto the rollout to "their" journeys.

 

[mrcaa]

Thanks for that info. It was bought from the TfW app but I’ve found the same issue with the Northern app (not sure if they’re both Trainline).

As you say they’re deceptive when you’re buying them. I also bought a Multiflex ticket to Piccadilly and it was issued to Oxford Road after checkout so I’ve already got a complaint in with them about that but I was hoping there was some way to get these e-tickets issued to the station group when I need to make one-off trips.

 

[bcarmicle]

Do you have to buy from TfW/Northern? Other retailers may make it more obvious what you're buying.

 

[mrcaa]

I've tried Virgin before but got the same result. I think it's probably down to TfW messing with the fares like Watershed said. It's a shame they're allowed to do that with the anytime tickets.

 

[sheff1]

Are the Ticket Machines at Chester of the 'route planner' variety where you have to select a train, even for an Anytime ? If not, might be worth trying them again to see what they issue. If they are, buy from the Booking Office ?

 

[mrcaa]

Buying at the station is a solution if I'm not running late. Might try that next time to see if the new machines are route planners though and whether they still offer Manchester Stations tickets or not.

 

[bcarmicle]

If you buy from GWR (for example at https://www.gwr.com/tickets#/2412/0438/2024-06-19/D07:00/O/O/1/0/0/1/1/N/N/N) - you'll see that there are two £22.90 Anytime Day Returns. If you hover over them, it'll tell you which is the one to Manchester Stations and so you can buy that one instead of the station-specific one.

I also suspect if you choose trains that arrive at Manchester Oxford Road but return from Manchester Piccadilly, the TfW app will sell you the ticket to Manchester Stations. I haven't checked this however.

 

[mrcaa]

That’s interesting. Just tried it on TPE as that’s also Worldline and that’s got you outbound to Oxford Road but returning from Piccadilly. Bonkers

 

[OscarH]

A couple of years ago, for the fares they controlled, TfW created duplicate point-to-point fares to individual members of group stations, e.g. Manchester Piccadilly for fares to Manchester Stations. It's unclear why they did this - I can only imagine it might have been to have more granular control over fulfillment methods, but in reality there are other ways of doing this so this wouldn't really have been necessary. However they seem to have enabled e-tickets almost universally* so it has become a moot point and now only causes confusion; they should abolish the point-to-point fares in my view.

Many ticket buying sites do not make it clear what the fare origin and destination of the tickets you're buying are - you only find out once the tickets are issued. This prevents you from making an informed (and sensible) decision to buy the most flexible ticket, i.e. the one issued to the group station, and so in a small way I do believe that ticket retailing sites have a part to play.

In many cases you will still be able to use a point-to-point ticket to travel to/from other group station members - e.g. an "Any Permitted" return between Chester and Manchester Piccadilly would be valid to go out via Warrington Bank Quay and 'stop short' or break your journey at Manchester Oxford Road, and you could return via Piccadilly and Northwich or Crewe.

*Except for journeys where it's anticipated you'll use Merseyrail, who continue to veto the rollout to "their" journeys.

Similar to the London Thameslink mess where loads of the fares are duplicated. I really hope they didn't do it to enable eTickets to group members individually though, as that's an even dumber reason given there's an explicitly supported way to do this as you say.

 

[Haywain]

Similar to the London Thameslink mess where loads of the fares are duplicated. I really hope they didn't do it to enable eTickets to group members individually though, as that's an even dumber reason given there's an explicitly supported way to do this as you say.

I quite regularly buy eTickets with a destination of London Thameslink.

 

[OscarH]

I quite regularly buy eTickets with a destination of London Thameslink.

As do I! I was referring to Watershed's suggestion of that's why TfW might have done it, which I think is an even worse than the reason they exist (I think) on Thameslink, which I believe was to do with some retailers not supporting that type of group properly at the time.

They're a right pain in Thameslink land and I wish they'd remove them, as well as giving you less validity, they've actually enabled London Thameslink for eTickets often but forgotten to enable the pointless point-point fares.

 

[mrcaa]

When you look up tickets from Chester to Manchester Piccadilly on BR Fares, all the SDR fares say “Ticket issued to: MANCHESTER STNS” which is how I thought they were supposed to be. Same for the Multiflex too. I don’t know how much authority the data from BR Fares has but the online retailers obviously aren’t using it.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[Haywain]

I don’t know how much authority the data from BR Fares has but the online retailers obviously aren’t using it.

BRFares is not an official source and is not used in ticket retailing.

 

[Watershed]

When you look up tickets from Chester to Manchester Piccadilly on BR Fares, all the SDR fares say “Ticket issued to: MANCHESTER STNS” which is how I thought they were supposed to be.

Actually, they don't all say that. One says "Ticket issued to: MANCHESTER STNS" whilst the other one (the duplicate) says nothing, indicating that - since you have specified Manchester Piccadilly as the destination you're searching for - it is issued specifically to Manchester Piccadilly:


See here and here for the respective BR Fares links.

Same for the Multiflex too.

The Multiflex is similarly issued both to Manchester Stations as well as Manchester Piccadilly.

I don’t know how much authority the data from BR Fares has

It's not an authoritative source, but I have always found it accurate in reflecting what is in the industry data feed.

but the online retailers obviously aren’t using it.

What retailers do with the data feed is another matter - as always, BR Fares just tells you the fares that are in the data feed. Not every fare shown on BR Fares is necessarily available for purchase - that could be because of quota control on Advance-type fares, a lack of trains or itineraries that meet the time/route/operator restrictions, or simply because their public sale has been disabled or restricted through the Retail Control Service (RCS).

In this case, online retailers are using the data feed, it is just that most pick either the "Manchester Stations" or "Manchester Piccadilly" fare automatically, and don't tell you about the existence of the other one. Or if they do tell you there's another fare, they do it in such an oblique or opaque manner that no average person will be aware of the difference, and will probably just think it's a glitch to have two (seemingly) identical fares at the same price.

 

[mrcaa]

I see thanks. I thought the bottom one in your screenshot was just offering more detail about the top one rather than them being two different entries as it seems daft to offer a more restrictive product for the same price. That must be the problem that TfW aren’t offering the MANCHESTER STNS one for sale like they told me in the quote in my original post. Were there not some rules about them not being allowed to put restrictions on the tickets if they’re the fare setter? I guess whatever rules there are don’t apply here.

I notice the GWR site only offers it on desktop not on the mobile site or their app. Really frustrating. I wish they’d just let me easily buy the ticket I need.