E-scooter & hoverboard ban on GTR

[jon0844]

More or less, in the FAQs:

The last part seems very misleading, implying they're going to be made legal very soon, and presumaby making people think it okay to buy. I mean, if it will be legal soon then it surely isn't an issue to ride them anywhere now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 May 2023 ==

Same here. Went in today looking for an inner tube to fit a Brompton (failed), but hard to miss the sign regarding the legality of using e-scooters.

Better than it used to be then, but clearly not working (well, maybe it does put some people off) and the FAQs claiming they'll be legal soon is not great.

 

[SargeNpton]

Why are they more of an issue? Don't they use the same type of battery?

E-scooters are motor vehicles, and so need to be insured and for the rider to have a valid driving licence.

However, they are a motor vehicle of a type that is not approved for use on the public highway - and so you cannot get motor insurance for them not can you have a driving licence that include the relevant category.

Those e-scooters that are currently part of rental trials are a separate issue, with insurance being included in the hire charge and any type of valid driving licence being valid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

E-scooters are motor vehicles, and so need to be insured and for the rider to have a valid driving licence.

However, they are a motor vehicle of a type that is not approved for use on the public highway - and so you cannot get motor insurance for them not can you have a driving licence that include the relevant category.

Those e-scooters that are currently part of rental trials are a separate issue, with insurance being included in the hire charge and any type of valid driving licence being valid.

All of which is true, but none of which is related to whether they're allowed on trains or not.

The thing about trains is based on the likelihood of the battery being a cheap, dangerous one. (Risk control isn't absolute, it's about likelihood as well as severity, plus risk-benefit is about the downsides of controls, which is why laptops aren't banned from aircraft).

 

[wood]

I believe the issue is of safety, the erratic behaviour of the batteries, a damaged or faulty battery can appear to be healthy only to ignite several hours after being damaged, Such fires are hard to constrain, the batteries may reignite after dowsing and damping.

I believe this might be the reason however phone batteries have the potential to do this also (see Samsung phones), yes given, the ebike batteries etc are larger. Satistically there is a larger chance of it happening with a phone than a bike since there are more phones. They used to be cheap Chinese e bikes etc that used to have this issue (wasn't common) however the newer bikes especially those made under regulation are much safer.

I don't thinks its a wise idea to ban them since a fair few commuters use a combination of both trains and bikes to get around. This will also, I believe will also reduce the value of the company and irritate passengers further. Rather what they can do is have a section to store the bikes therefore should anything go wrong (fire) it is contained and or improve fire tackling in the rare event it happens. In addition to this what do commuters do when they get off the train, use taxis, this increases carbon footprint.

Also the bikes are less dangerous than the user, and yes I do agree the users need to be more aware of their surroundings and not just place the owners on everyone else.

 

[jon0844]

I can't see transport operators wanting to ban e-bikes either as it would be a PR nightmare, but if there's ever an incident then I think they may have their hand forced. If there's a safety issue from large batteries, you can't just ignore the risk after actual incidents.

And that's why we can blame, or at least partly blame, our lack of controls to try and ensure all such products are as safe as can possibly be.

 

[island]

However, they are a motor vehicle of a type that is not approved for use on the public highway -

correct, for privately owned scooters

and so you cannot get motor insurance for them

correct

not can you have a driving licence that include the relevant category.

wrong, anyone with a category AM (moped), A (motorcycle), or B (car) licence is also granted category Q (2- or 3-wheeled, non-pedalled vehicles with maximum speed 25km/h), see gov.uk

 

[kkong]

The Government has really caused the problem here, by not banning their sale in the UK unless they are CE or UKCA approved. This has probably mostly been caused by the dithering about legalising their use on public roads.

UKCA and CE are simply "declarations of conformity" by the manufacturers.

Reputable manufacturers will have test data and/or certificates from notified bodies to support their declaration of conformity.

But there's nothing stopping a manufacturer from simply declaring conformity in the prescribed format for UKCA and CE.

So how do you tell the declarations from the manufacturers apart?

Edit: I have a KTM e-bike with Bosch components, so all legitimate. The DoC can be found here.

You will notice they don't include the 3rd party test reports as an appendix to the DoC, but having worked with Bosch in a professional capacity, I am certain they will exist.

 

[Ediswan]

UKCA and CE are simply "declarations of conformity" by the manufacturers.

Reputable manufacturers will have test data and/or certificates from notified bodies to support their declaration of conformity.

But there's nothing stopping a manufacturer from simply declaring conformity in the prescribed format for UKCA and CE.

Reputable manufacturers do sometimes perform their own tests to the same standards as the test houses. Absence of third party certification is not proof of a dodgy manufacturer.

 

[kkong]

Reputable manufacturers do sometimes perform their own tests to the same standards as the test houses. Absence of third party certification is not proof of a dodgy manufacturer.

I didn't say it was.

If you work in a given industry you can generally get to know which manufacturers are "winging it" and declare conformity without testing.

I worked for a long time in telecoms in the energy industry, and the documentation requirements for the projects always required us to provide the DoCs for all the equipment which should have it.

Always interesting when you come across manufacturers who won't / can't provide the DoC or the test data which would demonstrate conformity!

Edit: There are of course some instances where 3rd party (notified body) certification is mandatory (e.g. electrical equipment for use in explosive atmospheres).

 

[theageofthetra]

E-scooters are motor vehicles, and so need to be insured and for the rider to have a valid driving licence.

However, they are a motor vehicle of a type that is not approved for use on the public highway - and so you cannot get motor insurance for them not can you have a driving licence that include the relevant category.

Those e-scooters that are currently part of rental trials are a separate issue, with insurance being included in the hire charge and any type of valid driving licence being valid.

Worth also remembering that you can lose that valid licence if caught drink/drug driving on one.

 

[island]

Worth also remembering that you can lose that valid licence if caught drink/drug driving on one.

Or uninsured, which all use of private e-scooters will be, though that can be 6 points instead.

 

[PedroHav]

Yesterday the was a youth riding an electric scooter at speed on a crowded Southampton Central station weaving between people causing absolute carnage. Apparently he had pushed through the barrier to get into the station. I reported his behaviour to staff who basically said 'we have no security or police on the station so there's nothing we can do' ....
How anyone is going to enforce the e-scooter ban I don't know.

 

[Wolfie]

Yesterday the was a youth riding an electric scooter at speed on a crowded Southampton Central station weaving between people causing absolute carnage. Apparently he had pushed through the barrier to get into the station. I reported his behaviour to staff who basically said 'we have no security or police on the station so there's nothing we can do' ....
How anyone is going to enforce the e-scooter ban I don't know.

I saw someone take a step sideways then stick an arm straight out when a clown did that on the pavement. He went down hard.

 

[3rd rail land]

Yesterday the was a youth riding an electric scooter at speed on a crowded Southampton Central station weaving between people causing absolute carnage. Apparently he had pushed through the barrier to get into the station. I reported his behaviour to staff who basically said 'we have no security or police on the station so there's nothing we can do' ....
How anyone is going to enforce the e-scooter ban I don't know.

Exactly, the ban will be unenforceable in many cases. I presume station staff are not permitted to physically restrain the person so all they could do is ask him to leave the premises which he would clearly ignore. The BTP wouldn't attend for such an incident as they don't have the resource to do so in most cases. Are security staff allowed to physically detain someone breaking a byelaw?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Exactly, the ban will be unenforcable in any cases.

What's the difference between this and the TfL ban on open containers of alcohol? Whilst it most definitely hasn't eradicated it, it's still led to a downturn in alcohol consumption.

 

[jon0844]

Most people respect laws, even the ones they don't agree with. Sadly many people don't care, or actively break laws to get attention.

 

[virgintrain1]

Exactly, the ban will be unenforceable in many cases. I presume station staff are not permitted to physically restrain the person so all they could do is ask him to leave the premises which he would clearly ignore. The BTP wouldn't attend for such an incident as they don't have the resource to do so in most cases. Are security staff allowed to physically detain someone breaking a byelaw?

Railway staff do have the power to use reasonable force to make them leave the railway under byelaws. However it probably varies who feels comfortable physically removing people. I'm happy to when required. However don't get me wrong if I worked in South London I'd probably feel a lot less conformable!

 

[infobleep]

What's the difference between this and the TfL ban on open containers of alcohol? Whilst it most definitely hasn't eradicated it, it's still led to a downturn in alcohol consumption.

Probably like the ban on smoking at stations.

 

[kkong]

To follow up on this, BBC News have an article today highlighting the risks of (disreputable) manufacturers self-certifying their batteries which don't appear to meet the requirements of the relevant EU Directives / UK Statutory Instruments.

"Electrical Safety First" is calling for a change in the law to require third party certification of e-bike and e-scooter batteries.
There is a report at the following link.
https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/battery-breakdown/

There is growing concern over the rise in fatalities, injuries and devastating fires from electric bikes (e-bikes) and electric scooters (e-scooters). Tragically, in the first three months of 2023 alone, fires from lithium-ion batteries used to power these devices had already taken four lives in the UK, left others hospitalised or seriously injured and caused extensive damage to property.

The BBC News article has some footage of an e-bike fire inside a house with a child looking on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-66304564

 

[jon0844]

We allow almost everyone to self certify these days and the fire service doesn't have the resources to do checks. It was always going to be a recipe for disaster as companies can lie, profit and if things go wrong just shut down and disappear. It's pretty hard to bring charges, especially for people importing on Wish and Temu - with products illegally stamped with CE and UKCA markings.

 

[kkong]

The police forces could make a start by initiating a high profile campaign of stopping the riders of the myriad of illegal electric transport devices we see on our streets and seizing the devices.

From what I've read, several local authorities have asked the police why they aren't taking action, but the police forces seem reluctant to treat it as any kind of a priority.

 

[najaB]

From what I've read, several local authorities have asked the police why they aren't taking action, but the police forces seem reluctant to treat it as any kind of a priority.

Might have something to do with police forces being significantly under-staffed.

 

[kkong]

Might have something to do with police forces being significantly under-staffed.

Undoubtedly they are.

But I can't help thinking there would be a different approach if the same volume of illegal and unsafe cars were now on our roads.

 

[Roast Veg]

Undoubtedly they are.

But I can't help thinking there would be a different approach if the same volume of illegal and unsafe cars were now on our roads.

Legal cars are responsible for more deaths than all e-scooters.

 

[najaB]

But I can't help thinking there would be a different approach if the same volume of illegal and unsafe cars were now on our roads.

Well, unsafe cars would present a greater danger than unsafe e-scooters, and the cynic in me also notes that there would be the matter of VED not accruing to the Treasury as well.

 

[kkong]

Legal cars are responsible for more deaths than all e-scooters.

Are you suggesting that the police should run a campaign to stop and seize legal cars?

Otherwise, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

The illegal "e-vehicles" I am concerned about are:

• home-made e-bike conversions
• electric mopeds, as often used by food delivery drivers
• electric motorbikes, as often used by feral youths clothed entirely in black and wearing face masks (but not crash helmets)

 

[najaB]

The illegal "e-vehicles" I am concerned about are:

• home-made e-bike conversions

Not all home-made e-bike conversions are illegal. While many are, several vendors sell street-legal kits.

 

[jon0844]

The police forces could make a start by initiating a high profile campaign of stopping the riders of the myriad of illegal electric transport devices we see on our streets and seizing the devices.

From what I've read, several local authorities have asked the police why they aren't taking action, but the police forces seem reluctant to treat it as any kind of a priority.

They're busy dealing with mental health case, oh no, they don't want to do that anymore. Maybe dealing with aggressive shoplifting. Oh, no, they don't want to do that either - with one supermarket recently stating they may close (mostly convenience) stores in some areas.

The police did clamp down on e-scooters for a while, and filled our local station up with them, and once full they said they couldn't (or wouldn't) go for anyone else. And that's clearly the case as there are now loads of them whizzing around again, many at some incredible speeds. Meanwhile, Deliveroo drivers are doing 30-40mph on illegal e-bikes and nobody seems to care (gotta get that food quickly before it goes cold).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

Not all home-made e-bike conversions are illegal. While many are, several vendors sell street-legal kits.

Many also sell kits that are sold as legal kits, but with instructions on how to convert them to be somewhat less so. I doubt people are buying 1000W motors for their bikes just to keep them limited to 250W.

 

[The exile]

Undoubtedly they are.

But I can't help thinking there would be a different approach if the same volume of illegal and unsafe cars were now on our roads.

There probably are - just less obvious.

 

[najaB]

Many also sell kits that are sold as legal kits, but with instructions on how to convert them to be somewhat less so. I doubt people are buying 1000W motors for their bikes just to keep them limited to 250W.

I don't deny that people are installing non-legal kits, but you can't tar everyone with the same brush. Not all self converted bikes are illegal.