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E-scooter & hoverboard ban on GTR

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jon0844

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Or this once popular regulatory bodge.
View attachment 132671
Oh wow - that brings back memories.

I recognise this because I used to have phones with this sticker on it (well my parents did). :oops:

As I recall, these phones weren't really going to cause harm to the phone network but had simply been imported and not put through type approval. However, I am sure there was scope for some to be wired incorrectly and cause issues (usually just the ringer not working).
 
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CFRAIL

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Presumably as others have stated it's to do with batteries? But then where do you draw the line with e-bikes and presumably mobility scooters?
I suspect the real underlying reason (batteries excluded) is *some* of the folk that ride these e-scooters?!
 

jon0844

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As it stands the people who are illegally using an e-scooter aren't likely to care about the new rules (and therefore, what other rules and laws do they willingly ignore?), and I expect that many will push through regardless on the basis that staff aren't going to hold trains. How BTP handle it remains to be seen.

I am sure the same applies to people building e-bikes that can do 30, 40 or 50mph without pedal assist - but that's harder to tell when someone isn't riding it, and I know on forums the advice is to pretend to pedal.
 

island

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They really won't. If they were doing that, Deliveroo and other delivery services would be ensuring their riders weren't using them. A recent visit to Cambridge quickly saw how many were zipping around without pedalling, and I wasn't purposely looking for them (rather trying to avoid them).
Deliveroo is not well-known for caring about compliance with regulations...
 

mikeg

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As an aside, don't TOCs having individual rules on types of luggage make a mockery of there being a national conditions of travel? I thought the whole idea was there was one set of rules for all companies? Thus taking the matter to a crunch, are these rules enforceable? I mean they weren't in the contract the customer agreed to?
 

43066

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As an aside, don't TOCs having individual rules on types of luggage make a mockery of there being a national conditions of travel? I thought the whole idea was there was one set of rules for all companies? Thus taking the matter to a crunch, are these rules enforceable? I mean they weren't in the contract the customer agreed to?

The NRCoTs make provision for TOCs to have different policies regarding luggage, hence the recent discussion of Lumo, who are more restrictive than most.
 

island

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As an aside, don't TOCs having individual rules on types of luggage make a mockery of there being a national conditions of travel? I thought the whole idea was there was one set of rules for all companies? Thus taking the matter to a crunch, are these rules enforceable? I mean they weren't in the contract the customer agreed to?
If one were exceptionally bloody-minded and already held a ticket for travel post 1 June that was purchased before the changes, they could make an argument about it I suppose.
 

mikeg

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Hmm interesting.. I seem to remember once upon a time there were rules on luggage specified directly within the NRCoT , in effect setting out a minimum entitlement? Whilst cycles were at the TOCs discretion. When did this change? Ironic as we're supposed to be moving towards GBR and a better integrated network that the TOCs are moving in their own directions on so much.
 

43066

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If one were exceptionally bloody-minded and already held a ticket for travel post 1 June that was purchased before the changes, they could make an argument about it I suppose.

Contractually, perhaps. Of course, in the case of e scooters, even if you “won” the contractual argument, staff could simply tell you that you aren’t permitted to carry the item on board for safety reasons!


Hmm interesting.. I seem to remember once upon a time there were rules on luggage specified directly within the NRCoT , in effect setting out a minimum entitlement? Whilst cycles were at the TOCs discretion. When did this change? Ironic as we're supposed to be moving towards GBR and a better integrated network that the TOCs are moving in their own directions on so much.

The previous 2019 conditions (available on the National Rail Enquiries website), as with the current version, contains a list of prohibited items but also a catch all regarding TOCs specifying their own “special conditions”, which are required to be made available when booking a ticket in advance, and on their website.

Thus the provision for restrictions has been there for years, it’s just that TOCs haven’t generally gone beyond the standard exclusions until now.

The two recent examples I’m aware of are both somewhat uncharted territory: bikes being excluded entirely from GA services on the day of a cycle race (a sign of the times, with bikes much more of an issue post Covid) and Lumo, a new open access operator, who are implementing something closer to an airline style baggage policy than the railway has seen before.
 
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kkong

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I don't wholly understand why RDG didn't agree a national ban on escooters in one go.

Based on the following extract from the Feb 2023 ScotRail board meeting minutes, RDG made a recommendation to the TOCs, but it appears each TOC makes its own decision.

2.7 Carriage of unregulated lithium-ion powered micro devices: paper 23/02/04

David Lister presented the paper requesting the Board’s approval to impose a temporary 12-month ban on the carriage of unregulated lithium-ion powered micro devices on ScotRail services.
The fire risks associated with such devices was highlighted, together with the recommendation from the Rail Delivery Group (RDG) that train operators impose a ban due to such concerns.

The Board approved the proposed 12-month ban on the devices.
 

Ediswan

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Based on the following extract from the Feb 2023 ScotRail board meeting minutes, RDG made a recommendation to the TOCs, but it appears each TOC makes its own decision.
"unregulated lithium-ion powered micro devices"
"Micro devices" ? Were they referring to e-scooters, or something considerably smaller ?
 

jon0844

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I assume that's a catch all name for scooters, unicycles, hoverboards etc.
 

norbitonflyer

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If one were exceptionally bloody-minded and already held a ticket for travel post 1 June that was purchased before the changes, they could make an argument about it I suppose.
Unless you specified at the time of purchase that taking the scooter with you was intrinsic to your journey, I doubt you cpuld win that argument. They are not stopping you traveling, and it is you the ticket was issued for.
 

Bletchleyite

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I assume that's a catch all name for scooters, unicycles, hoverboards etc.

In some circles they are known as "micromobility devices" though the term hasn't really stuck.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Unless you specified at the time of purchase that taking the scooter with you was intrinsic to your journey, I doubt you cpuld win that argument. They are not stopping you traveling, and it is you the ticket was issued for.

I think this is why TOCs generally don't charge for bicycles, because there being a consideration (fee) means there is a contract.
 

43066

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In some circles they are known as "micromobility devices" though the term hasn't really stuck.

And why are wheeled “hoverboards” known as such when they don’t actually hover? That would be a genuinely impressive invention…
 

Bletchleyite

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And why are wheeled “hoverboards” known as such when they don’t actually hover? That would be a genuinely impressive invention…

Never understood that. It must surely not be long before an actual ground effect hoverboard could be done using drone type tech, though I'd imagine the batteries would only last maybe 5 minutes due to the massive amount of energy needed. Not a great mode of transport, but no doubt they'd be a fun toy in the garden.
 

railwalker

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As most e scooters are currently being used illegally, then the issue about insurance (or lack of) also comes into it.
 

najaB

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And why are wheeled “hoverboards” known as such when they don’t actually hover? That would be a genuinely impressive invention…
Advertising. The effect of riding one is somewhat reminiscent of the hoverboards from Back to the Future. Someone made the comparison and the name stuck.
It must surely not be long before an actual ground effect hoverboard could be done using drone type tech, though I'd imagine the batteries would only last maybe 5 minutes due to the massive amount of energy needed.
You'd be lucky to even get as much as five minutes. Small ducted fans similar to what you find on consumer drones would need to spin at several tens of thousand RPM, and would drain the batteries very fast (assuming they didn't spontaneously combust!)
 

Bletchleyite

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As most e scooters are currently being used illegally, then the issue about insurance (or lack of) also comes into it.

Interestingly if caught riding one in public a few offences are committed, if I recall:

1. Riding a motorcycle without insurance (insurance offence)
2. Riding a non-type-approved vehicle on a public road (construction and use offence)
3. Riding a motor vehicle without the correct licence (if you don't have class A, as they're basically motorcycles in licensing terms at present) (licensing offence)
 

railwalker

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Interestingly if caught riding one in public a few offences are committed, if I recall:

1. Riding a motorcycle without insurance (insurance offence)
2. Riding a non-type-approved vehicle on a public road (construction and use offence)
3. Riding a motor vehicle without the correct licence (if you don't have class A, as they're basically motorcycles in licensing terms at present) (licensing offence)
Yes it is a bit of a minefield. I did ask once why e bikes were not banned but didn't really get an answer.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes it is a bit of a minefield. I did ask once why e bikes were not banned but didn't really get an answer.

I think it was originally just a technicality of law based around the definition of a pedal cycle, though they now have specific legislation covering them of some kind, which probably originates from EU law.
 

railwalker

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I think it was originally just a technicality of law based around the definition of a pedal cycle, though they now have specific legislation covering them of some kind, which probably originates from EU law.
like a lot of these things it takes a while for the law to to "catch up" with developments.
 

island

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In some circles they are known as "micromobility devices" though the term hasn't really stuck.
The government's preferred term is "powered transporter", which also hasn't really stuck.

Interestingly if caught riding one in public a few offences are committed, if I recall:

1. Riding a motorcycle without insurance (insurance offence)
2. Riding a non-type-approved vehicle on a public road (construction and use offence)
3. Riding a motor vehicle without the correct licence (if you don't have class A, as they're basically motorcycles in licensing terms at present) (licensing offence)
It's not 3 unless you have no licence at all; powered transporters come under category Q which is automatically included if you have class AM (moped), A (motorcycle) or B (car).

Other offences arising, based on the fact that the High Court has held in Winter v DPP [2002] EWHC 1524 (Admin) that an e-scooter is a motor vehicle, include:
4. Operating a motor vehicle on the pavement (s34 RTA 1988)
5. Failing to display number plates
6. Failing to pay road tax

And possibly:
7. Driving a mechanically propelled vehicle without due care or attention
8. Drink/drug driving
 

Hoof Hearted

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It is to do with lithium type batteries. Within TFL and several other operators there is a lot of pressure to ban all lithium type batteries as it makes no difference whether they are in ebikes/scooters or other devices they are exactly the same - so most phones and laptops would be included in this.
some trains even provide charging points for laptops/phones - these will also be disabled as they are considered so dangerous.
 

railwalker

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It is to do with lithium type batteries. Within TFL and several other operators there is a lot of pressure to ban all lithium type batteries as it makes no difference whether they are in ebikes/scooters or other devices they are exactly the same - so most phones and laptops would be included in this.
some trains even provide charging points for laptops/phones - these will also be disabled as they are considered so dangerous.

If this goes ahead it will cause big problems, one of the only reason my old boss would use a train was it gave him time to get on with work whilst going to a meeting
 

najaB

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It is to do with lithium type batteries. Within TFL and several other operators there is a lot of pressure to ban all lithium type batteries as it makes no difference whether they are in ebikes/scooters or other devices they are exactly the same - so most phones and laptops would be included in this.
some trains even provide charging points for laptops/phones - these will also be disabled as they are considered so dangerous.
Do you have a source for that, please?
 

Bletchleyite

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It is to do with lithium type batteries. Within TFL and several other operators there is a lot of pressure to ban all lithium type batteries as it makes no difference whether they are in ebikes/scooters or other devices they are exactly the same - so most phones and laptops would be included in this.
some trains even provide charging points for laptops/phones - these will also be disabled as they are considered so dangerous.

Phones and laptops will not be banned from trains and buses, because if they were then the passenger loadings would look like they did on 24th March 2020.

I would completely cease all public transport travel without exception were such a ban implemented.
 

Hoof Hearted

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Do you have a source for that, please?
I design and more recently standards compliance check battery charging and protection circuits. The org I work for has responded to a number of queries from various operating companies on the relative safety of different battery chemistries, charging and devices.

their questions are very much tailored towards justifying a blanket ban rather than assessing the overall risk which is extremely low and much lower than many other risks inherent in any forms of transport.

My view as someone else has stated is that the bans are to avoid anti social behaviour or inconvenience to other passengers perceived to be more likely from those carrying e scooters. However this has been taken over by those who seem to want to ban as much as possible. (edited to add: or an extremely over cautious obsession with safety just in case)
 
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